Jumbo cargo

[empip]

I bet the pilot wanted tarmac asap !!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1981933,00.html

...The aircraft diverted to the only airport that the flight crew considered suitable and in the process flew over some of the most congested parts of London in a gliding configuration from which a safe landing was not reasonably assured....

Oh, just a bit of gliding over London .. no probs' ...
FFS !!

..The captain made a U-turn over Reading and - without the appropriate maps - decided to head back to Heathrow, which he had spotted out of the window earlier....

 

[masona]

Blimey, just missed me, make you wonder what else goes on

 

[Richardp]

I thought them planes was s'post to fly on one engine ?

 

[andy]

I thought them planes was s'post to fly on one engine ?

but a 747 has 4 engines, so it only looses 25% power. and since in flight, engines aint at full power, it wouldnt really be noticed, 2 engines on 1 wing at half and the other at full)

planes can fly on 1 engine (2 engine planes can even take off on 1 engine once they get to a certain speed)

 

[Big_Spark]

According to a report on the News tonight, the plane initially lost power to engine 4 which the crew shut down, but when they did this they lost power to two of the remaining three engines..leaving them only one engine to make good their landing.

In theory the 747 can do this, but I think this is the first time it's actually happened from what they said on the news..

They called it a glide, but in reality it was still powered flight...just 75% down on the norm!!!

They said on the News they beleive a software glitch may have been responsible for the loss of power ..??

 

[ban-all-sheds]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/1998/news.html#6aug

 

[empip]

I know who I would rather have 'up front' in an emergency !

 

[Richardp]

I know who I would rather have 'up front' in an emergency !

ahhhhh! slogger?

 

[empip]

Nah, some may have him as the 'tail skid' ...
Still seeking inspiration after the holiday break RP? Or awaiting the sun light dappling the wavelets?

 

[Richardp]

Nah, some may have him as the 'tail skid' ...
Still seeking inspiration after the holiday break RP? Or awaiting the sun light dappling the wavelets?

do you mean, "bugger off and get some work done"

 

[WoodYouLike]

According to a report on the News tonight, the plane initially lost power to engine 4 which the crew shut down, but when they did this they lost power to two of the remaining three engines..leaving them only one engine to make good their landing.

In theory the 747 can do this, but I think this is the first time it's actually happened from what they said on the news..

Same problem happened to the Bylmermeer disaster ElAl boeing which didn't succeed and crashed into two large flats. Was als a cargo flight.

 

[empip]

I thought them planes was s'post to fly on one engine ?

but a 747 has 4 engines, so it only looses 25% power. and since in flight, engines aint at full power, it wouldnt really be noticed, 2 engines on 1 wing at half and the other at full)

planes can fly on 1 engine (2 engine planes can even take off on 1 engine once they get to a certain speed)

What about the crew thinking they have no power .. due to instrument readouts?
It seems they were actually, carrying out a 'glide' approach ( mind you, they had no guidance available within their Operations Manual on the glide performance of the aircraft or glide approach technique !!)
Frighteningly ....

...In the final stages of the approach the commander instinctively advanced the thrust levers and all three operative engines responded although it is not known if the thrust developed was consistent with the thrust lever angle selected. Nevertheless, it is probable that even without these thrust selections, the aircraft would still have touched down on the runway but short of the normal touchdown zone....

Reason for the one, shutdown engine not restarting was found.. faulty igniter (there is backup system - which worked - on ground test? )
Some minor work carried out .. everything working ok ! Which is far worse than finding faults IMHO...
BTW A distinct possibility 'dangerous cargo' was involved .. oooer !!
Perhaps a 35 y/o jumbo needs a good kick, like a landing, to exercise it's resistive joints every once in a while !
N481EV

 

[Breesey]

Same problem happened to the Bylmermeer disaster ElAl boeing which didn't succeed and crashed into two large flats. Was als a cargo flight.

The Evergreen incident was really down to poor crew training. The loss of one engine, in its self, was/is not a problem.

The El Al accident was not really the same problem at all. It wasn't engine failure for a start. The #3 engine was lost completely due to fatigue in a pylon fuse pin. The way that the engine broke away caused the loss of the #4 engine and hydraulic system damage, leading to a loss of control. Following this accident a modification program was innitiated which installed a new, extra, link in the pylon attachment, and subsequent repetitive inspections.
All aircraft must be able to take off if an engine is lost at or after V1 speed, otherwise it would not have been certified. A 747, for example, can, and often does, take off on only 3 engines if one is inoperative. In this instance there would be no passengers or cargo onboard, of course!

 

[empip]

The Evergreen incident was really down to poor crew training. The loss of one engine, in its self, was/is not a problem.

What about this ...... some of the tests by independent ground engineer .

.......Having noted that the No 1 igniter system was inoperative, the engineer then tried to start the engine using igniter system No 2. The start was successful but there were still no indications of N1 or FF. He replaced the N1 tacho generator but there were still no N1 indications so he cleaned the Cannon plugs associated with N1 and FF. During this activity, the engineer found a BITE (Built-In Test Equipment) fault on the EIDS which led him to change the right-hand display unit and clean the Cannon plugs for the EIDS system.
The engine was then started and run at idle, during which N1 and FF indications were observed to be normal.In the presence of the crew, all four engines were started and run-up to take-off power, with instrument readings being taken which were relayed to the operator's main maintenance base. Since the readings indicated normal operation and performance by all four, clearance was given for the aircraft to continue with its planned journey. Subsequent information from the operator is that nothing in the aircraft's operating history since the incident has caused any concern over performance of any of the engines.

N1 = Effectively RPM of low-pressure compressor.
FF = Fuel Flow
EIDS ( Engine Instrument Display System ) failure?

...The aircraft's operator supplied the AAIB with a copy of the flight data from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) that included the incident flight. Data was available for 23 parameters (including time) of which EPR (Engine Pressure Ratio) for each engine was the only recorded engine parameter....

I believe 29 overall params required to be recorded for this aircraft (35 years old)... 88 required nowadays, .. not too sure on that.

Apart from lack of maps etc... I wonder if the flight crew were recieving different readouts of the same parameters, if any at all, beyond Engine Pressure Ratio, leading to No.1 flying by seat of pants and eye-balling, due to disbelief of either readout? He had 16,000 hours, 4,000 on type.

All a bit iffy ... I bet the crew were edgy on next take off !

 

[Breesey]

What about this ...... some of the tests by independent ground engineer .

.......Having noted that the No 1 igniter system was inoperative, the engineer then tried to start the engine using igniter system No 2. The start was successful but there were still no indications of N1 or FF. He replaced the N1 tacho generator but there were still no N1 indications so he cleaned the Cannon plugs associated with N1 and FF. During this activity, the engineer found a BITE (Built-In Test Equipment) fault on the EIDS which led him to change the right-hand display unit and clean the Cannon plugs for the EIDS system.
The engine was then started and run at idle, during which N1 and FF indications were observed to be normal.In the presence of the crew, all four engines were started and run-up to take-off power, with instrument readings being taken which were relayed to the operator's main maintenance base. Since the readings indicated normal operation and performance by all four, clearance was given for the aircraft to continue with its planned journey. Subsequent information from the operator is that nothing in the aircraft's operating history since the incident has caused any concern over performance of any of the engines.

N1 = Effectively RPM of low-pressure compressor.
FF = Fuel Flow
EIDS ( Engine Instrument Display System ) failure?

...The aircraft's operator supplied the AAIB with a copy of the flight data from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) that included the incident flight. Data was available for 23 parameters (including time) of which EPR (Engine Pressure Ratio) for each engine was the only recorded engine parameter....

I believe 29 overall params required to be recorded for this aircraft (35 years old)... 88 required nowadays, .. not too sure on that.

Apart from lack of maps etc... I wonder if the flight crew were recieving different readouts of the same parameters, if any at all, beyond Engine Pressure Ratio, leading to No.1 flying by seat of pants and eye-balling, due to disbelief of either readout? He had 16,000 hours, 4,000 on type.

All a bit iffy ... I bet the crew were edgy on next take off !

Not sure why, because of a fault in one system, that three engine parameters are lost. Except that one could have been genuinely lost, and the crew weren't aware of the hysterisis between engine activity and indication with regards to the others. Back to the classroom for them...

The flight engineer has an N2 indication and oil pressure indication, which, if you have nothing better, can give a reasonable idea of what the engine is up to.

How do you mean, you "...wonder if the crew were receiving different read outs of the same parameter..."? Each engine has one EPR indicator, run directly from an individual EPR transmitter installed in each pylon. EPR is really only critical at take off (it equates to the power the engine is producing and is worked out and set during the pre-flight), after that you can fly satisfactorily not knowing EPR. It's like you don't need to know what power your car engine is producing as long as you're going along!!

With regards to the flight recorder, the current edition of the UKCAA ANO (Air Navigation Order) requires a minimum 8 parameters, with most freighters having a total of 15. This aircraft was US registered but the requirements are very similar. Age doesn't come into it, its the aircraft's weight and use that's important.