Kitchen confusion

[bhwh]

I've done something silly and now can't get our kitchen lights working. A month or so ago we had our artex ceiling throughout the downstairs skimmed by a plasterer. Before he arrived, I removed all of the light fittings so that he could do the job properly. They were such horrible outdated fittings that I (stupidly) just snipped the wires and covered bare ends with insulation tape.

Before I did this, all lights worked including some undercounter ones that are fitted under the kitchen wall cabinets. These were left in situ but now no longer work - presumably because they are wired up via the ceiling rose which was removed.

I would like to get the undercounter lights working whilst we decorate etc and before new ceiling fittings are installed. But I can't work out how???

Here's a pic of the ceiling rose wiring.

Untitled

• bhwh
• 12 Nov 2013
• 1

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Could you confirm the core colours?
Is it three black and three green-yellow?
Or have you also got solid yellow cores.

Also do you have any approved safe equipment for carrying out continuity test and live voltage tests? If not it is purely guess work and assumptions.
It is likely that at least one black is a neutral, but possibly two and the green-yellow cores are earth/CPCs, then the remainder line conductors.
But without proper test procedures impossible to know!
Please make a note to ones self, when dismantle and disconnecting electrical cable, take a note, picture/diagram of the arrangement prior to messing!

 

[securespark]

Looks like the two blacks together are half twisted together: could be neutrals. If they are not touching, that could break the circuit and stop other lights from working.

The other black could be switched live.

The reds could be tucked away: are they in the ceiling?

You need to switch off and investigate to see if there are more wires hidden away.

 

[bhwh]

The colours are (from left to right): one earth (yellow/green) connected to a block, black, yellow, two blacks twisted together.

Yes - I have learnt from my mistake and will write down a sketch in future!

No wires are hidden. However, there is another ceiling rose about 12ft away that I also removed (without labelling). Had assumed, maybe incorrectly, that it's unrelated.

As you can probably gather, I'm not a leccy and will not do anything which you say I shouldn't. I did think that it would be more straightforward than this...

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Yes - I have learnt from my mistake and will write down a sketch in future!

we learn something everyday.

No wires are hidden. However, there is another ceiling rose about 12ft away that I also removed (without labelling). Had assumed, maybe incorrectly, that it's unrelated.

There are likely to be very closely related, as you have looped in neutral and disconnecting this will result in power loss to fittings from that point.

As you can probably gather, I'm not a leccy and will not do anything which you say I shouldn't. I did think that it would be more straightforward than this...

You require approved test equipment, such as a multi-meter.
As it is guess work at the moment, as it is possible that some of the black cores are line conductors and joining them could result in a blow out!

 

[securespark]

It is an odd combination of colours: all blacks plus one yellow.

Sure, as PBoD suggests, the other rose is most probably associated: find all those connections and report them here, as they need reconnecting as well, no?

 

[RF Lighting]

Can you pull the wires out of the ceiling some more until the grey outer sheath of the cable is exposed?

There may be additional wires or even joints pushed up into the ceiling void.

Make sure the power is properly isolated at the consumer unit before working on any of these wires. They may be live or come live even when the switch is turned off.

 

[bhwh]

So today I bought a multimeter. Having decorated we're now ready to replace the lights. Can anyone help with how I can identify the wires?

Thanks

 

[SimonH2]

So today I bought a multimeter. Having decorated we're now ready to replace the lights.

So lets get this straight, it's been several months, and now you've decorated but you didn't think it worth sorting this out first The first step is to find out what cables there are, because as pointed out, those wire colours don't make a lot of sense.

EDIT: What if you find there's a problem that means damaging your now decorated ceiling to fix ?

Did you see the last posting back in November ?

Can you pull the wires out of the ceiling some more until the grey outer sheath of the cable is exposed?

That's really the first thing to do, because once you know what cables there are (as opposed to random wires sticking out) it makes things a lot easier to sort out.

 

[bhwh]

Ok - to be precise I've applied the first mist coat to the plaster. Not much progress, I know.

I've pulled down the cables to expose some previously hidden wires. It's not a pretty sight and I'm thinking I'll need an electrician tbh.

Untitled

• bhwh
• 22 Feb 2014
• 1

 

[conny]

.......... It's not a pretty sight and I'm thinking I'll need an electrician tbh.

Untitled

• bhwh
• 22 Feb 2014
• 1

Think thats the most sensible solution to this problem.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I've pulled down the cables to expose some previously hidden wires. It's not a pretty sight and I'm thinking I'll need an electrician tbh.

Do you still have the live loop (Reds) in the ceiling void?
Seems you have now connected all the blacks together has this brought power back to the lights that were not working?

 

[SimonH2]

Seems you have now connected all the blacks together has this brought power back to the lights that were not working?

Unless it caused a big bang when he switched on

 

[bhwh]

Sorry - this is going to sound odd but what's basically happened is we've had a new consumer unit fitted (and moved), new sockets, new down lights in bathroom done by an electrician.

I wasn't at home during the work so basically had a phonecall to say the electrician wasn't happy finishing the job (which included a test of the system) with the wires hanging down in the kitchen. Now because the job costs were already mounting up, we agreed for him to make safe by blocking and taping up.

So the blocks you see in the latest picture were fitted by a pro leccy, not me. Surely he would have tested them before applying the blocks?! Not just guesswork surely.

In hindsight I should have asked him to include fitting a basic light into the job. As it is, I will now have to get them back again just to fit a ceiling light. When we eventually refurb the kitchen (planned for 2015) then I'd like gu10 down lights fitting, so really the point of this thread was just to get something temporary back on the ceiling until we get the work done properly.

Finally, one interesting point is that the electrician who did all the work struggled at first to get the downstairs cloakroom light working. He initially thought it was a bulb but I guess it ended up being something to do with the loop system not being complete.

Anyway - thanks people and sorry to waste your time - I should have (a) made a note of the wiring before disconnecting and then (b) just got try electrician to do the full job and not just tape up.

 

[SimonH2]

In hindsight I should have asked ...

Yeah, I think we all have 20/20 hindsight vision

... then I'd like gu10 down lights fitting

Why ?
Downlights are crap at lighting a room. Great if you want to light up the floor, but crap at lighting the room and where you want to work.
But if you really insist on installing poor lighting, then at least go for decent units. GU10 is fine if you intent to fit half a kilowatt of incandescent lighting - but if you are going to go LED then buy LED units, don't fit GU 10 fittings and retrofit LED bulbs which cannot be as good simply because of the constraints imposed by the form factor.
Fit decent LED units and they should be the last ones you ever need to fit. My mate's fitted 29 Haler H2 units in his bungalow - I don't care too much for them, but as downlighters go they aren't bad (and are also sealed).