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Kitchen sockets circuit

While considering the advantages/disadvantages of ring v radials the sharing of loads and the redundancy is with considering too.
It would be a benefit to consider the initial premise of at least two sockets on differing power circuits in every room and indeed two lighting circuits.
Obviously these considerations are more important in the busiest rooms/high total load locations and probably significantly less so in other locations. If a utility room is used for a multitude of tech stuff then a bit of duality might be worth considering.
Indeed if the utility room is to become the "command centre" of Johnw2 mansion this might be desirable.
Kitchen - if, for example, load highs (including both max draw and max duration) to a mix of appliances spread roughly equally about two definable halves of the kitchen, especially for appliance power then if one power circuit is down (for additions, amendments, repair) could be a benefit.
Even one circuit purely for the main fridge freezer might be worthy of consideration - only a fault on on that one particular circuit or that one particular appliance could result in a major food disaster whilst you are blissfully unaware/unable to take action because you are at our antipodes.and the incoming supply to the house is still healthy.
Of course you would need to ensure adequate labelling at the consumer unit and adjacent to it a schedule of circuits in a clear durable unambiguous notice and keep fingers crossed that people read and understand it.
Taken to the extreme you might want to consider each point on its own radial circuit and a consumer unit being big enough to fill one room on its own - of course that extreme would be completely ludicrous except perhaps for an important government house expecting a nuclear winter! That`s before you give important consideration to alternative supplies and UPS.
Everything stated so far will have a cost consideration too both monetary and work effort - most people will consider this the most important limiting factor.

So a mix and match of the above ideas would be your initial starter for ten. How far are you prepared to go and what extras benefits are likely to become the most important?
How much do you want to defend your lifestyle (electrically speaking) and how much are you willing to spend on it?
The world is yer lobster!

Renewables/Battery Storage/ Stand by generators etc etc , the list goes on

I`m probably repeating most of what I`ve already said previously
 
Even one circuit purely for the main fridge freezer might be worthy of consideration - only a fault on on that one particular circuit or that one particular appliance could result in a major food disaster whilst you are blissfully unaware/unable to take action because you are at our antipodes.and the incoming supply to the house is still healthy.

Separating fridge/freezer supplies, and not on a RCBO/RCD, was for me one of my priorities, during last summer's upgrade. Both used to be on the downstairs ring, and worryingly -shared with lots of other appliances, and numerous outdoor sockets. I made a point of putting the new fridge/freezer sockets, tucked well out of the way, so no chance of them being used for any, but the fridge/freezers. I mitigated the point made by John, that - if the freezers or on the general ring, you would be more likely to notice it had tripped, by knowing I had freezer temperature alarms, already fitted, plus fridge, includes an obvious light when you open the door, which gets opened multiple times per day.
 
...Taken to the extreme you might want to consider each point on its own radial circuit and a consumer unit being big enough to fill one room on its own - of course that extreme would be completely ludicrous ...
Post~13
 
What loads will you have in the utility?
I've told you the anticipated loads across both kitchen and utility room. I would imagine that we wikll end up primarily with just washer and dryer in the utility room, with the dishwasher, microwave and assorted other ('transient use') plug-in items in the kitchen. The fridge-freezer could end up in either, but probably the kitchen.
For the upper floors, will you have one socket circuit per floor? How many bedrooms per floor?
That'snot the plan. As I wrote at the start of the thread, that was what (on the basis of CU labelling) I initially thought I had (3 sockets circuits,one per floor, with the ground floor one serve both kitchen and everything else), but I then discovered that the actual situation is that there is a kitchen circuit, another covering the rest of the ground floor, and one covering both upper floors.

As I've said, the upper two floors each have just two bedrooms (the middle floor also having two bathrooms). I'm not yet sure whether I am going to bother to install an electric 'back-up' shower but, if I do, there is already a 40A 6mm² circuit for that purpose already installed.

Kind Regards, John
 
Separating fridge/freezer supplies, and not on a RCBO/RCD, was for me one of my priorities, during last summer's upgrade.
With the way the regs have evolved, achieving 'compliance' with a freezer on a dedicated circuit which has no residual current protection is not straightforward. For a start, it probably has to be hard-wired (not a plug+socket) and any buried cables probably have to be armoured (or at least sheathed) or in conduit. How have you done it?
I mitigated the point made by John, that - if the freezers or on the general ring, you would be more likely to notice it had tripped, by knowing I had freezer temperature alarms, already fitted, plus fridge, includes an obvious light when you open the door, which gets opened multiple times per day.
As I often say, particularly when there IS RCD/RCBO protection, I am no fan with freezers being on dedicated circuits, since that can appreciably delay awareness of a loss of power. However, as you know, like you I 'mitigate' that risk by having temperature alarms - not the least because the (very few) occasions on which I have got close to 'losing the contents of a freezer' have all been due to failure of the freezer itself, rather than failure of its power supply.

..... plus fridge, includes an obvious light when you open the door, which gets opened multiple times per day.
Yes, if there is a fridge supplied by the circuit, or if it is a fridge-freezer,then it's no so bad, since I fridge gets opened frequently. The problem is with standalone freezers (such as i have in my cellar), which can go for days without being opened.

Kind Regards, John
 
While considering the advantages/disadvantages of ring v radials the sharing of loads and the redundancy is with considering too.
It would be a benefit to consider the initial premise of at least two sockets on differing power circuits in every room and indeed two lighting circuits.
Obviously these considerations are more important in the busiest rooms/high total load locations and probably significantly less so in other locations.
Sure, although as I recently noted,having more than one circuit supplying sockets in a location can represent a hazard for someone subsequently working on the installation without enough care (but 'should we design on the basis of isiots?'!).

Of course, the designer's ideal would obviously be 'one socket per circuit', since 'proper design' would then be possible, without the need for any guessing about how the circuits will come to be loaded. The sort of multiple-sockets circuits we have are the antithesis of that ideal situation
If a utility room is used for a multitude of tech stuff then a bit of duality might be worth considering. ... Indeed if the utility room is to become the "command centre" of Johnw2 mansion this might be desirable.
We are not talking about the "JohnW2 mansion" but, rather a house I have inherited in which I am almost certainly never going tolive (even though three generations of my predecessors have lived there at times). I will not be planning for the utility room to be used for anything other than the usual 'white appliances' I have mentioned.
Kitchen - if, for example, load highs (including both max draw and max duration) to a mix of appliances spread roughly equally about two definable halves of the kitchen, especially for appliance power then if one power circuit is down (for additions, amendments, repair) could be a benefit.
As I've said, if there were two or more circuits, the vast majority of occupants would probably not know which socket was on which circuit and/or have an understanding of 'distribution of loads' - and even 'labelling the sockets would probably not help many of them. As above, the only 'real solution' would have just one (maybe two) sockets per circuit.
The amount of time ('over the years') for which a power circuit would be down "for additions, amendments, repair" would be too little for me to give any consideration to it!
Even one circuit purely for the main fridge freezer might be worthy of consideration - only a fault on on that one particular circuit or that one particular appliance could result in a major food disaster whilst you are blissfully unaware/unable to take action because you are at our antipodes.and the incoming supply to the house is still healthy.
See what I've just written to harry.
Of course you would need to ensure adequate labelling at the consumer unit and adjacent to it a schedule of circuits in a clear durable unambiguous notice and keep fingers crossed that people read and understand it.
Sure - but again, although maybe it is "their problem" some 'idiots' might overlook or ignore any such attempts to keep them safe!
Taken to the extreme you might want to consider each point on its own radial circuit and a consumer unit being big enough to fill one room on its own - of course that extreme would be completely ludicrous ...
I hadn't read this far when I wrote above but, yes, 'one socket per circuit' is the ideal. You call it 'ludicrous', but is it not fairly close to what our friends in the rest of Europe (and maybe beyond) do?
So a mix and match of the above ideas would be your initial starter for ten. How far are you prepared to go and what extras benefits are likely to become the most important? .... How much do you want to defend your lifestyle (electrically speaking) and how much are you willing to spend on it?
The world is yer lobster! ... Renewables/Battery Storage/ Stand by generators etc etc , the list goes on
Indeed - but, as above, I'm not talking about a house in which I'm going to livce,nor one for which I will be paying the energy bills ;)

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm sure you are well educated on the subject to make your own mind up.
You will also have the benefit to understand how much extra work it would be to add an extra cable in for the Util.

Either seam perfectly acceptable solutions to me.

A WM and Dryer would work well off a 25A MCB.
I'm sure you would be the first to argue that both appliances wouldn't trouble a 20A MCB.

To me it all comes down to what happens if the kitchen/util circuit were to fail and won't reset. If you were to plug an extension lead into the fridge, would it be easy to plug it into the downstairs ring (or cooker outlet if socket exists). If no, and it would be easier to plug it into the Util circuit to keep the fridge going, then I would probably have a separate util circuit.

Of course, it as you already have the kitchen ring in the util, it would be most sensible to leave one socket in there off the kitchen ring. (why go to the effort of removing it). And add further sockets on a seperate util. (you could have the dryer on its own circuit). And the flexibility in years to come to do whatever you want. I suspect your OCD and safe isolation would not allow you to go down this route, but I would encourage you to give it serious thought!

Now upstairs sockets.......

While a ring covering 4 bedrooms sounds great, but when then are spread across 2 floors I have to question it. If You have a failure that can't be reset what then happens? (probably no big deal). Except the poor fault finder (you?) will be running up and down the stairs trying to locate the fault with your megger. Would you want to do that at the age you would be?

I don't know how the wiring had been done, but would it be easy (simply by disconnecting 1 cable) to change it to two radials on 25A RCBOs.
If yes, and if it were me, and if it were easy, I would split the ring by putting one cable into some wagos in the back box of a socket.
It probably won't be that easy, but will give you something to ponder.

And of course, need to consider ordering 2x 25A RCBO. (you could use the 25A for the ring anyway)
 
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With the way the regs have evolved, achieving 'compliance' with a freezer on a dedicated circuit which has no residual current protection is not straightforward. For a start, it probably has to be hard-wired (not a plug+socket) and any buried cables probably have to be armoured (or at least sheathed) or in conduit. How have you done it?

My home, my own common sense and my rules. There was no RCD protection, on any circuits. I have improved on that situation massively.
 
Post~13
That seems to be a crazy approach for lights but, as I've written 'one (or maybe two) sockets per circuit' has something to be said for it, particularly from the designer's viewpoint
 
That seems to be a crazy approach for lights but, as I've written 'one (or maybe two) sockets per circuit' has something to be said for it, particularly from the designer's viewpoint
Absolutely crazy and something I certainly never expected to see.
 
I'm sure you are well educated on the subject to make your own mind up.
I'd like to think that I am, but that doesn't stop me being interested in hearing other people's opinions.
You will also have the benefit to understand how much extra work it would be to add an extra cable in for the Util. Either seam perfectly acceptable solutions to me.. .... A WM and Dryer would work well off a 25A MCB. ... I'm sure you would be the first to argue that both appliances wouldn't trouble a 20A MCB.
I'm sure that all the options being considered would be fine - there must be millions of homes that have just one 32A circuit for the kitchen or kitchen+utility.
To me it all comes down to what happens if the kitchen/util circuit were to fail and won't reset. If you were to plug an extension lead into the fridge, would it be easy to plug it into the downstairs ring (or cooker outlet if socket exists).
Yes, either would be easy. A room supplied by 'the other' ground floor circuit is very close to the kitchen (and utility) and, in any even, the cooker circuit has a socket.
Of course, it as you already have the kitchen ring in the util, it would be most sensible to leave one socket in there off the kitchen ring. (why go to the effort of removing it). And add further sockets on a seperate util. (you could have the dryer on its own circuit). And the flexibility in years to come to do whatever you want.
That's precisely what I was talking about as an option - leave the one existing 'kitchen circuit' socket in the utility room but alsdo add a new circuit, with some additional sockets, in the utility room. Mind you, even though I was not particularly considering it, as for "why go to the effort of removing it", it would only take a couple of Wagos, a plank plate and a few minutes to address that. However ...
I suspect your OCD and safe isolation would not allow you to go down this route, but I would encourage you to give it serious thought!
It's not 'my OCD', given that I am almost certainly never going to be living there (and, even if I were, I would be 'safe' because I would understand the installation) - but rather a question of how much one should do in anticipation of the behaviour of future idiotic occupants or their workmen. However, as I've just said, I think that, despite such thoughts, I would probably leave the one 'kitchen circuit' socket in the utility room, even if I added a new 'utility circuit.
Now upstairs sockets....... While a ring covering 4 bedrooms sounds great, but when then are spread across 2 floors I have to question it. If You have a failure that can't be reset what then happens? (probably no big deal). Except the poor fault finder (you?) will be running up and down the stairs trying to locate the fault with your megger. Would you want to do that at the age you would be?
It probably wouldn't be me, and a situation such as you suggest would be very unlikley, so I don't think that's an issue for me. One 32 Acircuit for four bedrooms (where loads are likely to be minimal) is more than enough, and that would probably remain the case if someone decided to 're-purpose' one of the bedrooms (e.g. as an 'office'). If I end up deciding not to install any electric shower, I suppose that the existing (unused) shower circuit could be repurposed as a 32A radial for one of the bedroom floors, but I doubt that I'll do that.
I don't know how the wiring had been done, but would it be easy (simply by disconnecting 1 cable) to change it to two radials on 25A RCBOs.. If yes, and if it were me, and if it were easy, I would split the ring by putting one cable into some wagos in the back box of a socket. It probably won't be that easy, but will give you something to ponder.
Yes, I did consider that but, not yet having delved too deeply, I also don't yet know exactly how the circuit has been wired. However, it would seem very probable that one arm of the ring goes up from the CU and does the middle floor sockets and then goes up to supply the top floor ones, and then back down to the CU. If that's the case, then the 'conversion' would only require disconnection of one, or both,ends of the cable connecting the top two floors. In fact, I have yet to discover where the cables going between top too floors have been 'hidden' (they must be in some wall, but I have yet to discover which) !

Such a course (and, indeed, a 'utility room circuit') would somewhat simplify the 'choice of CU' question (by reducing options), since it seems that neither MK or BG offer 25 A RCBOs ;)

Kind Regards. John
 

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