Kitchen Wiring Assistance

-I would always like to be able to isolate an appliance easily.
-If you were a practising electrician who has ever carried out an EICR, you would consider the person who installed a socket behind a 38Kg appliance which has then been securely fastened into a kitchen carcass to be a total winker of the highest order.
Even without being a practising electrician who has ever carried out an EICR, I agree with you totally, would never do that myself and have often cursed when I have encountered such a situation - although I obviously don't undertake formal EICRs, I have been known to work on electrical installations, and some of us non-electricians do undertake 'periodic I&T' for our own purposes, you know :)
wasn't mean't to belittle your abilities. I'm fairly sure you have dabbled on many occasions. Just as a side note, whats the chance of the eye level microwave having a lead of about 1-1.5m in length? This would mean some poor sod is going to have to arrange some kind of platform about chest height to place the microwave on whilst faffing around trying to un-plug it. Unless of course he has a gorilla-like forearm that can easily carry a 38kg lump safely whilst trying to unplug with the other hand. (which brings me dangerously close to discussing one of my other pet hates- people who hard wire integrated ovens with a cable too short to allow the thing to be removed and put straight on the floor, gits)
However, BAS has raised an interesting point which widens the discussion. If one interprets the regs as prohibiting any inaccessible screwed connection (between a cable and anything),
i don't see 526.3 having much scope for mis-interpretation, its very clear and simple. IMO, there are no ifs or buts about it, nothing wider to discuss.
is it actually compliant to do anything other than bringing an unbroken 'flying lead' (replacing it with a longer one if necessary) all the way from the appliance to an accessible place (such as the cupboard you mention)?
IMO, no.

Using simple, established methods to comply with 526.3 should not present a problem to any decent electrician.

BTW, regards your comment about the regs not clarifying the word 'accessibility' well enough for you, i don't see why they need to really. After all, its not designed to be a 'dummies guide to lecktrickery' or a DIY instruction book. Imagine the authors probably thought the readers would be able to check the dictonary for any words they can't comprehend.
 
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i don't see 526.3 having much scope for mis-interpretation, its very clear and simple. IMO, there are no ifs or buts about it, nothing wider to discuss.
Yes, I agree.
is it actually compliant to do anything other than bringing an unbroken 'flying lead' (replacing it with a longer one if necessary) all the way from the appliance to an accessible place (such as the cupboard you mention)?
IMO, no. Using simple, established methods to comply with 526.3 should not present a problem to any decent electrician.
That certainly makes sense, but I'm sure there are countless examples out there which violate that principle - FCUs, outlet plates and unswitched sockets (connected via accessible switches) behind appliances must be very common...

...but the one seemingly inescapable problem about 526.3 is that, if one regards 'behind an apppliance' as inaccessible, one cannot possibly be compliant in terms of a screwed connection between the lead and the appliance, which is surely "a connection between a conductor and other equipment"

BTW, regards your comment about the regs not clarifying the word 'accessibility' well enough for you, i don't see why they need to really. After all, its not designed to be a 'dummies guide to lecktrickery' or a DIY instruction book. Imagine the authors probably thought the readers would be able to check the dictonary for any words they can't comprehend.
That's not really ideal, and not really acceptable, when one realises the possible consequences of 'non-compliance with the regulations'. If people may be advised to spend money on 'improvements', or if obtaining LABC approval requires that the work 'be brought up to standard', one doesn't really want to 'have a lottery' in which whether or not something is compliant is decided on the basis of individual people's interpretations of non-explicit regulations. In analogy, imagine the situation if the regulations/laws did not explicitly define the minimum acceptable tread depth for tyres, but individual MOT testers, police officers and courts were free to make their own interpretation of some vague statement in the regulations/laws about 'adequate/safe tread depth'!

Kind Regards, John.
 
Fair enough - but I still think opinions will varying about what constitutes accessible.
FFS just go and read a dictionary and see what the definition of "accessible" is. :rolleyes:


(a)...I did wonder about that quoted weight. Do you not think that 38kg is extrordinarily heavy for any microwave, even a 'combination one'? - some cookers don't weigh any more than that.
IHNI how extraordinary that is.

I am 99.99% sure though that were lifting it to be taking place in an employment context H&S guidelines would require 2 people to do it.


(b)...The regs' concern about (banning of') inaccessible screwed joints presumably really is about inaccessible screw terminals, whether joining two cables or joining one cable to some other metallic conductor. If so, you presumably will feel that it's not acceptable to have sockets, plugs, FCUs, outlet plates or any other accessories behind this appliance - in fact, you presumably would feel that the only compliant approach would be to bring a trailing lead from the appliance out into some 'accessible place' before terminating it in any way. Is that your view?
Yes.

Note that this appliance is supplied without a cable. It should not be beyond the wit of the installer to fit a cable long enough to run to the accessible FCU.
 
That certainly makes sense, but I'm sure there are countless examples out there which violate that principle - FCUs, outlet plates and unswitched sockets (connected via accessible switches) behind appliances must be very common...
I'm also sure there are.

Just as I am sure that there are innumerable people who commit moving traffic offences every time they drive their car.

Your point is?


...but the one seemingly inescapable problem about 526.3 is that, if one regards 'behind an apppliance' as inaccessible,
Why "if"?

Do you still not know what the word means?


one cannot possibly be compliant in terms of a screwed connection between the lead and the appliance, which is surely "a connection between a conductor and other equipment"
113.1

So that's that one sorted.


That's not really ideal, and not really acceptable, when one realises the possible consequences of 'non-compliance with the regulations'.
Why not?

If the regulations require "a thing", and do not provide their own special definition of "a thing", what possible justification can you have for refusing to recognise the overwhelming evidence from multiple dictionaries of what "a thing" means?


If people may be advised to spend money on 'improvements', or if obtaining LABC approval requires that the work 'be brought up to standard', one doesn't really want to 'have a lottery' in which whether or not something is compliant is decided on the basis of individual people's interpretations of non-explicit regulations.
Indeed not.

But the alternative to a non-explicit regulation which uses a common non-technical word is not a "lottery".

It's using the common non-technical definition of the word.
 
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IHNI how extraordinary that is.
38kg is pretty extraordinary - most large domestic combi microwaves seem to weigh around half that figure.

Note that this appliance is supplied without a cable.
I thought the consensus was that it will very probably come with a lead and 13A plug (which the OP would be worried about cutting off, for fear of affecting the warranty)?

Kind Regards, John.
Edit: formating corrected
 
one cannot possibly be compliant in terms of a screwed connection between the lead and the appliance, which is surely "a connection between a conductor and other equipment"
113.1 So that's that one sorted.
Only, I would think, if the appliance come with a factory-fitted lead of adequate length.

If the regulations require "a thing", and do not provide their own special definition of "a thing", what possible justification can you have for refusing to recognise the overwhelming evidence from multiple dictionaries of what "a thing" means?
That 'overwhelming evidence' almost all involves the word 'easy' or 'easily' - the meaning of which is inevitably to some extent in the eyes/mind of the beholder.

Kind Regards, John.
 
Do you intend to

a) Contend that a heavy fixed appliance built into a fixed item of furniture could reasonably be regarded as "easily removed" by anyone with an IQ bigger than their shoe size?

b) Howl at the moon?

c) Both of the above?
 
That's not really ideal, and not really acceptable,
Are you in a position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public (or the electrical trade)? Or is that simply your isolated, unsupported opinion?

So far, you appear to be on your own.
 
Ok, so from whats been said so far......
Chances are its going to come with a 13a plug (which if it does, I will not remove just in case it invalidates the warranty)
It will need to go on its own circuit (min 16a) and wired via either an accessible FCU or 20DP sw which will feed a unswitched socket.
The single oven can in mind mind be done in exactly the same way (except I'll probably use a flex outlet as the manual says it comes with a terminal block only...no power cable).
The microwave does not have to go on its own circuit, it can quite easily sit on the ring final circuit - that is up to you.
On a recent kitchen refurbishment I put the plug powered microwave on its own circuit because I was redesigning the kitchen circuits anyway.
If the microwave is built in, then I would position the socket in either the cupboard above or below the microwave - that way you will be able to easy access it and avoids the need for any additional form of isolation.
 
Do you intend to a) Contend that a heavy fixed appliance built into a fixed item of furniture could reasonably be regarded as "easily removed" by anyone with an IQ bigger than their shoe size?
If you look, you'll see that my comments were a response to a general comment about accessibility, not specifically in relation to the particular appliance in question. You know as well as I do that a definition including 'easy' or 'easily' is going to have grey areas, and be differently interpreted by different people.

Kind Regards, John.
 
Are you in a position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public
Come on, this is an internet forum! Do you really want me to stick 'IMO' into every sentence I type?

Kind Regards, John.
Yes please, where appropriate, just to clarify to the readers when you are conveying some kind of fact, or just giving your opinion.

Maybe if you do think its unacceptable, you should write a letter of complaint to the IET, see what they say ;)
 
Are you in a position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public
....Do you really want me to stick 'IMO' into every sentence I type?
Only where appropriate, just to clarify to the readers when you are conveying some kind of fact, or just giving your opinion.
If there were any serious scope for misunderstanding, I would; as you must be aware, I actually use 'IMO' or similar qualifiers quite a lot for that very reason.

In present context, I really don't see any such scope. Do you really believe that any half-intellegent reader would think that when I write that something is 'unacceptable', I do so from some "position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public"? Indeed, does anyone have such 'authority'?!

I can but wonder why you are singling me out for this rather pedantic criticism, since I am obviously not the only person who expresses opinions here!

Kind Regards, John.
 
Are you in a position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public
....Do you really want me to stick 'IMO' into every sentence I type?
Only where appropriate, just to clarify to the readers when you are conveying some kind of fact, or just giving your opinion.
If there were any serious scope for misunderstanding, I would; as you must be aware, I actually use 'IMO' or similar qualifiers quite a lot for that very reason.

In present context, I really don't see any such scope. Do you really believe that any half-intellegent reader would think that when I write that something is 'unacceptable', I do so from some "position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public"? Indeed, does anyone have such 'authority'?!
I believe the members of JPEL/64 have precisely that authority (in respect to BS7671)
I can but wonder why you are singling me out for this rather pedantic criticism, since I am obviously not the only person who expresses opinions here!

Kind Regards, John.

I'm hardly singling you out, nor being pedantic. In fact, i find it mildly amusing that you are calling me pedantic. (pot/kettle. glasshouses etc etc) When it is you who is asserting that it is not acceptable for the regs to have omitted to define the word accessible to your satisafction when you seem to be the only person who is struggling with it.
 
... from some "position of authority to declare what is and is not acceptable to the general public"? Indeed, does anyone have such 'authority'?!
I believe the members of JPEL/64 have precisely that authority (in respect to BS7671)
With respect, that surely is a particularly silly suggestion? If one were considering the possibility that something in BS7671 was not acceptable to the general public, those involved in the writing of BS7671 would surely be the last people with any authority to speak for the general public against BS7671!

Kind Regards, John.
 

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