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Nope, its not silly
We definitely disagree, then. To me it seems ridiculous to suggest that someone who may have done something which is not acceptable to the general public should be regarded as an authority on what is acceptable to the general public!

Kind Regards, John.
 
... it is you who is asserting that it is not acceptable for the regs to have omitted to define the word accessible to your satisafction when you seem to be the only person who is struggling with it.
Putting aside the words 'not acceptable', which were perhaps ill-chosen and appear to be provoking emotions, I have to say I'm rather surprised that no-one seems to be acknowledging that there are grey areas, and situations in which opinions/interpretations will vary, in terms of what is 'accessible'.

Kind Regards, John.
 
Nope, its not silly
We definitely disagree, then. To me it seems ridiculous to suggest that someone who may have done something which is not acceptable to the general public should be regarded as an authority on what is acceptable to the general public!

Kind Regards, John.

What on Earth are you taliking about? Apart from a handful of people, BS7671 is a mystery to the general public. Does it really matter that they don't have a definition of the word accessible? I thought you were going to sort out your next set of experts.
 
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Nope, its not silly
We definitely disagree, then. To me it seems ridiculous to suggest that someone who may have done something which is not acceptable to the general public should be regarded as an authority on what is acceptable to the general public!

Kind Regards, John.

Sorry John, but with respect, i think you are losing the plot a bit.
 
What on Earth are you taliking about? Apart from a handful of people, BS7671 is a mystery to the general public. Does it really matter that they don't have a definition of the word accessible? I thought you were going to sort out your next set of experts.
Why is everyone making such a meal out of this? With the benefit of hindsight, I obvioulsy should not have used the words 'not acceptable' - but, given that I did, it is surely the case that the only people who can determine what is acceptable to the general public are the general public?

Kind Regards, John.
 
To me it seems ridiculous to suggest that someone who may have done something which is not acceptable to the general public should be regarded as an authority on what is acceptable to the general public!
Sorry John, but with respect, i think you are losing the plot a bit.
One of us must have done - since it seems crazy to me that someone other than the general public should be able to decree what is acceptable to the general public. It's like me telling you whether or not you would find something acceptable, regardless of your views!

Kind Regards, John.
 
John, just out of curiosity, have you seen the list of members comprising JPEL/64 and the various group they represent?
 
John, just out of curiosity, have you seen the list of members comprising JPEL/64 and the various group they represent?
You mean this list? ...
Who is currently involved in this committee
A C E - Assn. for Consultancy & Eng.
A E A - Agricultural Engineers Assn.
A M D E A - Assn. of Manuf.s of Domest
Assn. of Manuf.s of Power Generating
B E A M A Installation Ltd
B E A M A Ltd.
British Cables Association
Chartered Inst.n of Building Services
City & Guilds of London Inst.
DC Users Forum
Department for Communities and Local
E N A - Energy Networks Association
E R A Technology Ltd
EAL
Electrical Contractors Association
Energy Institute
G A M B I C A Association Limited
H E V A C Association
H S E - Health and Safety Executive
I E T - Inst.n of Eng. and Technology
Inst. of Healthcare Eng. & Estate Mgmt
Institution of Lighting Professionals
Intertek Group PLC
Lighting Association
Lighting Industry Federation Ltd
M o D - U K Defence Standardization
N A P I T - National Association of
N I C E I C Group Ltd
Panel Member
Professional Lighting and Sound Assn.
R I A - Railway Industry Association
S C E M E
S E L E C T
Safety Assessment Federation Ltd
The Electrical Safety Council
U N I T E - The Union
United Kingdom Accreditation Service
I presume your point is that the 'general public' are in some senses represented (by consumer groups etc.) and that all the individual committee members are, of course, members of the general public. However, I still think it is wrong to suggest that the committee can speak on behalf of the general public in relation to a suggestion that they may not be acting in accordances with the wishes of the (wider) general public.

Kind Regards, John.
 
John, just out of curiosity, have you seen the list of members comprising JPEL/64 and the various group they represent?
You mean this list? ...
Who is currently involved in this committee
A C E - Assn. for Consultancy & Eng.
A E A - Agricultural Engineers Assn.
A M D E A - Assn. of Manuf.s of Domest
Assn. of Manuf.s of Power Generating
B E A M A Installation Ltd
B E A M A Ltd.
British Cables Association
Chartered Inst.n of Building Services
City & Guilds of London Inst.
DC Users Forum
Department for Communities and Local
E N A - Energy Networks Association
E R A Technology Ltd
EAL
Electrical Contractors Association
Energy Institute
G A M B I C A Association Limited
H E V A C Association
H S E - Health and Safety Executive
I E T - Inst.n of Eng. and Technology
Inst. of Healthcare Eng. & Estate Mgmt
Institution of Lighting Professionals
Intertek Group PLC
Lighting Association
Lighting Industry Federation Ltd
M o D - U K Defence Standardization
N A P I T - National Association of
N I C E I C Group Ltd
Panel Member
Professional Lighting and Sound Assn.
R I A - Railway Industry Association
S C E M E
S E L E C T
Safety Assessment Federation Ltd
The Electrical Safety Council
U N I T E - The Union
United Kingdom Accreditation Service
Yep, thats the one.
I presume your point is that the 'general public' are in some senses represented (by consumer groups etc.) and that all the individual committee members are, of course, members of the general public.
Yep, thats it.
 
I presume your point is that the 'general public' are in some senses represented (by consumer groups etc.) and that all the individual committee members are, of course, members of the general public.
Yep, thats it.
In which case I can but repeat my sentence which followed the one you have quoted, namely:
However, I still think it is wrong to suggest that the committee can speak on behalf of the general public in relation to a suggestion that they may not be acting in accordances with the wishes of the (wider) general public.
A democratic government is probably close to the ultimate example of a group of people who represent the general public, in as much as they are elected by the general public - but even such a government would not usually presume to be able to speak for what was regarded as acceptable by the general public they represent, or to be able to assume that everything they did would inevitably be regarded by the general public as acceptable.

Kind Regards, John.
 
John, the requirements for electrical installation provided in BS7671 do not need to be acceptable to the general public, or even understandable by the general public. They need to be a) suitable for use by competent people to assure the safety of electrical installations, and b) not a contradiction of the European Harmonization Documents, which are themselves derived from IEC standards for electrical installations.
However, the 'general public' are, as has been pointed out, represented by the consumer groups within JPEL/64, and the professional bodies within that JPEL. If you felt a need for further clarification of any of the requirements, you could have made a comment on the Draft for Public Comment (DPC) that was available on both the BSI and IET websites. May I ask if you did make such a comment?
 
John, the requirements for electrical installation provided in BS7671 do not need to be acceptable to the general public...
Ah, well that's a different matter, which we have not been discussing!

Just to remind you, what I said (seemingly without being careful enough about my choice of words!) would 'not be acceptable' to the general public would be a situation in which they faced a lottery as to whether or not they were advised (EICR C3), or told (to achieve LABC approval), that they should spend money on having their electrical installation improved/rectified, dependent on whose interpretation of the requirements of BS7671 they were having to accept. Do you disagree with the spirit (even if not words) of that?

I cannot but think that if I had chosen my words more carefully, none of this flurry of posts would have happened. It really all arose out of my 'innocent' comment that there was, in some cases, scope for differing opinions as to what was, and want not, accessible.

Talking of which, what would you say, for example, about a location behind an access panel on a wall/whatever, the panel attached with a few screws - or beneath a similar access panel (aesthetically nasty though it might be!) in a suspended wooden floor with no coverings - or above a top floor ceiling, visible in the roofspace, but with access hindered by low-pitch pre-fabricated roof trusses - or high on a wall, above something you couldn't stand on - or behind a movable appliance weighing 12kg or so (BAS has already answered for 38kg)? Are those degrees of access, in your opinion, 'easy' enough (BAS's dictionary definition) to count as 'accessible'? ... and I wonder if, in accordance with what I'm being told, everyone else would be unanimous in agreeing with your answers?

Kind Regards, John.
 
In the absence of a more precise definition in the standard, then one uses the Oxford dictionary definition, i.e. "able to be accessed". Whether such accessibility is sufficiently "easy" surely depends on the judgement of the person who is competent to have that access? In your example, that would be the electrician performing the EICR, or the LABC, who are the persons responsible for the advice/instruction being given, so it is their interpretation that counts, not yours, or mine, or that of a householder/member of the general public.

I do agree that this seems to be a problem for a number of people, so let me ask again if anyone thought it enough of a problem to make a comment on the DPC?
 

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