Kitchen wiring

[Thierry]

Hello,

It's my first post, but I've been reading quite a lot for some time now. I do some diy, have some electric background from college/uni and I'm a computer techy. I can read and understand techy stuff, but I'm no sparky!

My kitchen is getting completely redone, structural work, replastered, rewired, re-floored, re-everything. The "electrician" came today to do 2nd fix. A new consumer unit will be fitted too.

In the position of the built-in dishwasher, he's put a normal recessed single switched socket just behind the appliance on the wall.

I saw an enormous tall socket rated 50A, DP (MK brand) that he said he will fit on the wall, behind the oven. I asked what was the point of a switch if it's behind the oven/behind the kitchen cabinet,he said "you have to have it". I asked "what's the point of a switch if you can't get to it", he said "to hide it, it's very big".

I asked him about fused spurs and accessible switches for each appliance, and he said "it's only required for the oven".

I asked him if the kitchen will be on an RCD: he said "yes".

I asked him if he was registered. He said "yes". I asked if I could have his name and registration number so I can check, and he said he does the work, then his friend comes to certify it (this in principle is fine by me).

I am worried.

1) do built-in appliance require by law, not recommendation, not "should", but "must" have an individual fused supply and an individual accessible switch? (fuse could be in plug, so sounds like only switch is required)

2) this electrical work is part of a bigger job, and if I have to get a new proper electrician to continue the work, it's probably gonna cost me lot more money (pick up someone else's mess) plus the arguing and the resulting bad relation with the building manager, the rest of the works might suffer. Any advice on how to handle this situation smoothly?

Cheers
Thierry

 

[Chri5]

It's illegal for a DISQ electrician to certify anything other than his own owrk, the exception is when the mate and electrician with the certificate are working for the same firm.

A cooker switch is an isolator and is for safety. It MUST be accessable, think chip pan or oven fire- How would you turn it off?

Ditto switches for washer, drier etc. It's poor practice to have the isolation below the counter and not accesable, think fire issues.

I would suggest that you address these issues with the primary builder who appears to be contracting the spark, the spark may have to adjust price, but if he was more professional should have quoted on the basis of doing things to "best professional practice".

Such practice would be providing fused spurs above counter with a cable route for the appliance flex between the below counter point and the fused spur.

Commonly this type of thing, a flex outlet plate

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MKK1090.html

He then provides a link TE cable between the fused spur and the flex outlet.

As for the cooker isolation, 45a is normal (but might not be enough) and MK do this

 

[hairyben]

You are correct, all isolation should be readily accessible.

If there's a fault on the ring and the RCD is tripping, you don't want to remove all the inbuilt appliances one by one to find which one is tripping it, do you?

A socket outlet in an adjacent cupboard is fine and the cheapest way of complying, you can have an inacessable socket if it's controlled by a switch spur, the problem with switch fuse spurs above the counter is many kitchens nowadays have so many appliances theres loads of them and it gets ugly, so often people opt for gridswitch switch-spur systems, where you can control up to 12 appliances from one large plate.

 

[comms]

1) do built-in appliance require by law, not recommendation, not "should", but "must" have an individual fused supply and an individual accessible switch? (fuse could be in plug, so sounds like only switch is required)

No they dont, it is advisable however to have a means of isolation above the worktop. I use MK grid system for this, some frown upon it but it looks tidy & gives that means of isolation.

2) this electrical work is part of a bigger job, and if I have to get a new proper electrician to continue the work, it's probably gonna cost me lot more money (pick up someone else's mess) plus the arguing and the resulting bad relation with the building manager, the rest of the works might suffer. Any advice on how to handle this situation smoothly?

Talk to the building manager & ask (no infact tell him you wish) if you can pay the little extra & get the electrical work tested/certed by BC, state your worries about the sparks mate signing the work off .

It's illegal for a DISQ electrician to certify anything other than his own owrk

,

Cobblars is it, the scheme operators frown & discourage it because you as the certifying spark become responsible for that installation.
If it were illegal then the LBC couldn't cert any work could they?

A cooker switch is an isolator and is for safety. It MUST be accessable, think chip pan or oven fire- How would you turn it off?

Should be with in 2 meters of the hob/oven & idealy not sited inside a cupboard (hate it when they do that).

Such practice would be providing fused spurs above counter with a cable route for the appliance flex between the below counter point and the fused spur.

Commonly this type of thing, a flex outlet plate

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MKK1090.html

Have used this method myself in the past, but remember that you'll invalidate any appliance warranty if you chop the plug off Hence the use of grid switch down to a bog standard unswitched single sso.

 

[dannyboi2003]

Comms, I know this is a frequently debated topic but i strongly disagree that cutting the plug off an appliance invalidates the warranty. Every appliance manual i have seen has a section on changing/removing the plug if not suitable, at no point have i ever seen a remark saying the warranty will be invalidated by removing the plug.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No they dont, it is advisable however to have a means of isolation above the worktop. I use MK grid system for this, some frown upon it but it looks tidy & gives that means of isolation.

Not BS 7671 compliant though, is it...

Talk to the building manager & ask (no infact tell him you wish) if you can pay the little extra & get the electrical work tested/certed by BC, state your worries about the sparks mate signing the work off .

It might be too late for that, if the original information given to LABC was that the work would be carried out by a registered electrician, particularly if the LABC in question is one of the ones that doesn't follow the rules.

Cobblars is it, the scheme operators frown & discourage it because you as the certifying spark become responsible for that installation.
If it were illegal then the LBC couldn't cert any work could they?

That's not the same thing - BCOs have a special status, as do Approved Inspectors. Registered electricians do not have the same status and they may not certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. A clue to this is that the schemes are referred to as "self certification schemes" (See Building Regulation 16A). If someone hasn't done the work how can he self-certify it?

The position of a firm having a Qualified Supervisor and a bunch of knuckle-draggers is also different - a company is a legal person, and it is the company which has done the work and it is the company which self-certifies its own work.

Have used this method myself in the past, but remember that you'll invalidate any appliance warranty if you chop the plug off Hence the use of grid switch down to a bog standard unswitched single sso.

Which still leaves the plug fuse fairly inaccessible.

As dannyboi says, there's nothing wrong with cutting the plug off, but IMO an unfused socket, e.g. Schuko or 15A BS 546, would be better than a flex outlet plate, for ease of servicing.

 

[hairyben]

I always leave an "appliance accessible" socket for an appliance- thats either a remotely switched socket behind the app, or in a cupboard next to it with a hole big enough to pass a plug through. Reason being when the man from comet comes with a new app he will only plug it in, not wire a plug or connect to a outlet.

 

[Thierry]

Thanks for that. I had a civilized talk with the manager and the "electrician" and they're gonna do fused spurs at worktop level.

I say "electrician" with quotes because I asked this morning him if he was gonna protect the kitchen circuits with an RCD. He said yes and showed it to me: a standard MCB.

From reading this forum and elsewhere, kitchen circuits must be on an RCD... By the way, is RCBB just a different name for an RCD? The wikipedia answer is not in plain english... and which one of them does the kitchen need to be protected by?

I hate the fact I can't trust 100% the electrician...

 

[rebuke]

RCCB = Residual Current Circuit Breaker, it is effectively another name for an RCD. Note that if using an RCCB you'd also need an MCB to protect from overload - an RCBO combines the two functions into one device.

That's very scary if someone claming to be an electrician thinks an MCB is an RCD - I'd be inclined to report him to Trading Standards / Rogue Trader for that (assuming it wasn't a misunderstanding - e.g. you already have an RCD in your CU and he was going to simply add the kitchen as another circuit to it, at which point he would just need an MCB)

Under 17th edition, all general purpose socket outlets must be RCD protected, so your normal sockets need to be. Also, any cabling buried less than 50mm in a wall that isn't in earthed metal conduit must be RCD protected, which normally covers things like cookers etc, so effectively everything in a kitchne has to be RCD protected. You could in theory have sockets dedicated to a fridge/freezer that weren't, by running them in conduit / surface mount trunking or whatever, and some sparks do this, but it doesn't sound like this is relevant here...