Let's talk satin paint. Having some real bother,

[CluelessDIYer1]

While not a painting pro, i've painted the wallpaper no bother, painted bits for my car no bother but this satin stuff is twisting my melon man!

I bought some Crown undercoat which went on no problem.

Came to do the "Crown non drip satin". I didn't stir it as per instructions.

I've tried a bit on the brush, i've tried a lot on the brush. I've tried straight from the tin, i've tried into a tray mix a bit of water to get it runny, nothing is working for me. Either this is the way satin (or this crown stuff) is, or i'm doing something (don't know what) wrong.

I go down the grain & all is well, the paint turns from jelly like to water like & easy to flow. All is well.
I move alone a brush width but inevitably i cut into where i've just painted. Still all is well.
But then small 'chunks' start to appear at random locations. I try & brush over these but then it only serves to 'lift' the paint & create a poor effect - as though i've just jabbed the paint with the end of the brush bristles.

The only way around this is more paint, which then lifts up more paint which has already started to dry even though it's only been down a minute or two. Not only this but then i get runs at the end of my strokes.

It took me about 20-30 mins to paint a 3ft-x-1ft piece yesterday as getting it even was horrendous.


Am i doing something wrong?

Would Dulux equivalent be any better?

Or would shelling a bit extra for some Dulux Trade Satin be any better - is it any easier to work with?

My biggest gripe is these mini dollops being randomly left behind. It's even happening with a brand spanking new brush today. I could possibly (i say POSSIBLY) get the job done if it wasn't for this.

Have this wood to do, skirting, door frames & probably a glass panel door as well. I'm on the verge of chucking this paint & i've not long opened it. I don't want gloss due to what i've ready about yellowing.

 

[misterhelpful]

What exactly does, "small 'chunks' start to appear at random locations" mean? Do you mean dryish patches?

None of the water based finishes are easy to work with but it's important not to go over already painted areas until it has fully dried. It's tempting to do so as when the paint is starting to dry it looks uneven but usually dries relatively evenly. You do, however, need to apply more than one coat of water based gloss/satin/eggshell in order to get a good finish.

Dampen a synthetic brush before starting as this can help the paint flow better from the bristles.

 

[Chri5]

Water based satin is just ok, the Dulux trade oil based is very, very good- but it is very slow cure (12 hours or so).

Firstly all water base needs a very good stir. The cooler the room the better since it cures very quickly.

On big areas. Use a damp brush and wet the surface lightly with h2o. Then lay on paint across the grain quickly. Finally finish going down the grain with the minimum of strokes, do not over work the paint.

As mentioned synthetic bristle is far better, leave far less brush marking. With synthetic brushes damp them before paint to avoid the paint clogging the internals of the brush.

 

[Flyboytim]

Apply the paint quickly with a gloss roller, then lay off using a lightly loaded brush, with even long strokes. Do not overwork the paint. You should complete a 3 by 1 foot surface in less than 5 minutes.

Dispose of the used roller at the end of the day.

Personally I hate non-drip (thixotropic) paints. Usually they are meant to be self-undercoating (i.e. 1 coat), and you apply a thicker coat than with standard paints, this should gel soon after application and form a uniform coat as it skins and dries. It never seems to work though.

Finally the brush should be well used, rather than new to give a good finish. Well used brushes have worn down to a rounded shape, and any bristles that tend to stick out have been worn away.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

What exactly does, "small 'chunks' start to appear at random locations" mean? Do you mean dryish patches?

Sorry it's hard to describe without photos really. I don't mean brush marks & i don't mean dry bits. It leaves physical 'pieces' of what i guess is dried bits of paint? If it happens again (& it very likely will) i'll try get a photo.

None of the water based finishes are easy to work with but it's important not to go over already painted areas until it has fully dried.

Easier said than done when you can't paint in a perfectly straight line (i can't). How much can/should you 'up & down' on the one spot? I was going back & forth a good few times which appeared fine, but then when you move along & catch where you've just done, it left horrible marks.

You do, however, need to apply more than one coat of water based gloss/satin/eggshell in order to get a good finish.

No problem. Not a fan of one coat ideas anyway.

Dampen a synthetic brush before starting as this can help the paint flow better from the bristles.

Thanks. I did try this which didn't really seem to make a difference (or not one that i noticed). Can't harm things though i suppose.

Water based satin is just ok, the Dulux trade oil based is very, very good- but it is very slow cure (12 hours or so).

I've no problem with this since it'll be getting painted (around night time - after work & then we wont be able to go back to the house until the following night at the earliest, so will be 24 hours between visits.

What's the consistency/workability of the trade stuff like? Is it more watery?

Firstly all water base needs a very good stir.

Really? This tin specifically said NOT to stir it. I was planning on getting a photo of the back of the tin & posting here but i got home from work & fell asleep so haven't been to the house.

Then lay on paint across the grain quickly.

Haven't tried this yet so i'll give it a go.

do not over work the paint.

I'm guessing there's a fine line between working it well & over working then & as a novice i'm going to over step this

Apply the paint quickly with a gloss roller, then lay off using a lightly loaded brush, with even long strokes. Do not overwork the paint. You should complete a 3 by 1 foot surface in less than 5 minutes.

That's what i was planning on but it wasn't working for me & i was well over 5 mins.

I should be able to do this without a roller i would've thought. Plus this would be the only thing i'd use a roller for i guess as i wouldn't be using it for the door frames & skirting, so i want to avoid shelling on extras if possible.

Personally I hate non-drip (thixotropic) paints. Usually they are meant to be self-undercoating (i.e. 1 coat), and you apply a thicker coat than with standard paints, this should gel soon after application and form a uniform coat as it skins and dries. It never seems to work though.

I couldn't see much of an option on the shelf tbh. Our only paint selling place is B&Q here. There was the Dulux Satinwood, the Dulux Trade Satin, B&Qs own make & the Crown stuff.

There was the non drip which i bought or the quick drying. I didn't want quick drying so bought non drip. I didn't see any other option. On the drying speed of this stuff i'd hate to work with the quick drying if it's any quicker.
For some reason the re-coat time is the exact same though.

Finally the brush should be well used, rather than new to give a good finish. Well used brushes have worn down to a rounded shape, and any bristles that tend to stick out have been worn away.

Thanks.

Out of interest, what do you use new brushes on then? As every well used brush was a new brush at some point.[/quote]

 

[jtonline]

Could the 'dry chunks of paint' be the top coat lifting the undercoat off whatever is being painted and being deposited elsewhere by the brush? If, say, the surface required priming or some other prep prior to undercoat?

 

[misterhelpful]

Just backing up a little here. I thought you were using Crown water based satin. I don't know why I thought that because you state it is non drip so I should've realised.

In that case, are you getting cissing, which is like little pock marks appearing in the paint surface a short time after application?

This can be a problem if the surface is contaminated with grease, dirt, dust, polish etc. It can also occur if you apply paint to a glossy surface which hasn't been sanded back thoroughly enough, but this shouldn't be the problem on your newly undercoated surfaces. Oil based satin does dry quicker than gloss but it shouldn't be drying so quickly as to cause the problems you are experiencing.

There's always the chance that you have picked up a faulty tin of paint.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Could the 'dry chunks of paint' be the top coat lifting the undercoat off whatever is being painted and being deposited elsewhere by the brush? If, say, the surface required priming or some other prep prior to undercoat?

I'm no expert, but i'd be surprised if this was the case.

I sanded the wood down & gave it a good clean before hitting it with undercoat. I left more than the recoat time (considerably more) before undercoating again & left considerably more time again before going with the non drip paint.

I thought you were using Crown water based satin.

errrr.....i am??

It states to clean the brush with cold water so i take from this that it is water based.

Whereas the undercoat states to clean with a proprietary cleaner, so i take from that that the undercoat it solvent based.

Certainly smells like it.

In that case, are you getting cissing, which is like little pock marks appearing in the paint surface a short time after application?

Sounds similar, but i only get this markign if i go back over the paint with the brush shortly after application. If i just leave it i don't get these marks, but i still have evening out problems that i mentioned.

There's always the chance that you have picked up a faulty tin of paint.

Possibly although i doubt it. It must be something that i am doing wrong i imagine.

 

[misterhelpful]

I've never actually noticed a water based satin described as non-drip, hence my confusion, but I'm not a fan of water based finish coats so always avoided them whenever possible. Having done a quick search, it appears that a number of manufacturers call them non-drip. (Open your eyes in future mrH!! )

If you are ruling out a faulty can, it seems that there are only two likely causes of the problem now. Either it is the fact that you are going over the paint as it is starting to skin or it's the water based paint reacting to the oil based undercoat. In theory, there shouldn't be an issue, as oil based undercoat usually accepts most paints, but it is usually wiser to use a whole water based system when using a water based top coat.

From what you have said, my guess is that you are just not working quickly enough or trying to go over what you see as flaws while the paint is starting to dry. Water based finishes are hard to work with so don't take that as a criticism - we've all had issues with them and the majority don't seem to be improving very quickly.

 

[Flyboytim]

Out of interest, what do you use new brushes on then? As every well used brush was a new brush at some point.

There are some folk with an aversion to cleaning brushes, and use them as throwaway items. This obviously does not apply in this case.

Emulsion, vinyl, exterior paints, textured paints, wood stain on fences, cutting in on ceilings and walls, applying paint to mouldings, Wallpaper repairs, priming, undercoating, PVA adhesives. And many more, but not bitumen mastic, it never seems to clean off. Reserve a special brush for that alone.

Obviously the more abrasive the surface and liquid medium the more rapidly will the brush wear down. The small brushes are particularly good, when suitably worn for painting the beading and putty next to glass on older windows, or for cutting in with different colours on panels.

I use old vegetable (chip oil) oil to clean oil based painting brushes. It goes onto paper for either lighting wood- or bonfires. It also cleans paint off skin more gently than solvents and detergents. Then continuing to clean with soap, and repeat with oil if necessary.
Water based paints can usually be rinsed off in plain water.
Clean all the brush, not just the bristles, but the metal and handles too. Use a nail brush if necessary. When rinsed off, a little remaining soap will help keep brushes in shape, and the bristles together. If you want squeaky clean brushes, use a tiny drop of washing up liquid at the end, massage in and rinse thoroughly and shake, and dry by wrapping in paper, standing handle down in a dry jar.

At least, that's what I do.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

If you are ruling out a faulty can, it seems that there are only two likely causes of the problem now. Either it is the fact that you are going over the paint as it is starting to skin or it's the water based paint reacting to the oil based undercoat. In theory, there shouldn't be an issue, as oil based undercoat usually accepts most paints, but it is usually wiser to use a whole water based system when using a water based top coat.

I don't want to come across as lazy here (as i've actually looked for this) but are you able to post up a link to the combination you mention?

Unfortunately we only have B&Q as a paint selling store so it'd have to be from there. I looked for oil primer-oil top coat, or water primer-water top coat but couldn't find it. In fact that was the only primer i saw (at least from Crown).

I had reservations about oil based paint too after reading about the yellowing.

or trying to go over what you see as flaws while the paint is starting to dry.

Agreed

Water based finishes are hard to work with so don't take that as a criticism

I had no problems working with the emulsion on the wall though. In fact i've never had any issue with any paint until this.



Something interesting today though....

that bit of ye olde wood is probably original 1932. It's also had some seriously sticky stuff on there in the form of that mustardy stuff. I wonder if this has played any role, even though i heat gunned it off & sanded it down well.

Reason i say is because the Mrs decided we were going to change the window sill from it's browny-reddy colour to white. She sanded it all back & primed it 1 coat.
I then went back the next day & primed it a second coat. Got to admit, it in white with the white uPVC window looked tidy. Not necessarily better but tidy.

Anyway, i hit it with that non drip satin today. It was like totally different paint. I didn't do anything really different but the paint flowed so well. It also didn't drag, didn't leave mini chunks, didn't leave pock marks when touching paint that had been on for a minute or two. I didn't use any more or less than i had on the other piece. It just flowed quite nicely & was quite easy to work with.

So on that note, i wonder if the type of wood & the stuff that's been on there/not been on there before is the cause? Something is different. The bit of wood i made this thread about has been hell to work with (paint) but doing that windowsill tonight was effortless.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Here's a question about number of coats...

* I should point out that if you take life too seriously then you should probably not bother reading on. If you think picking your nose is vulgar then don't bother reading on. If you're not soft & overly sensitive then go ahead...



I was on the toilet today at work (told you not to bother if you're overly sensitive) & i got thinking. 1 sheet is suicide. 2 sheets is probably do-able although risky but best to go with 3 sheets for guaranteed protection.
Which (welcome to my mind!) got me thinking about coats of paint. Everything i've read & been told has been 2 layers. The first one gets a bit of a spread & the second evens everything out.

I just wonder ....... why 2 coats? Why not 3, or 4, or 5 etc? I know we could get silly & say why not 100, so let's keep it sensible & stick to why not 3? Would it offer any extra benefit or no?

Just the random wonderings of a toilet visit

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Here's another, although this one wasn't whilst on the toilet...

I was having a look at the options in B&Q. What i've got right now is solvent based Crown undercoat & water based Crown top coat.

Dulux appear to do a solvent based top coat. Is this better for any reason vs the water based Crown top coat? Is it easier to work with maybe? More hard wearing maybe? I'd rather not buy just to find out as it's not exactly the cheapest thing.


EDIT: And for those who asked about the mini blobs of paint i mentioned...

I did it over again. This time i used a 4" brush instead of a 2" or 2.5" whichever i was using. I ran under the tap & shook off first & i went against grain before then going down grain as suggested.

All was well at first but after a bit it started depositing mini blobs of paint again which were annoying. They wouldn't smooth out, they'd just move around & cause drag marks. I'd have to pick them out & brush over again which risked the earlier problems.

Anyway, this be them....




No they're not parts of the wood that i haven't sanded, they move, they're bits of paint i'm sure. Bits of something anyway.