Levelling screed for laying stone tiles onto a wooden floor?

[joanne64]

Hi,

My neighbours' surveyor has suggested that new damage to the stone floor in my first floor kitchen (which originally occurred when my neighbours' took down a wall that had become load-bearing in our Victorian flat conversion) is my fault. He's said that I didn't use flexible grout when re-laying the tiles (I did), that stone must have been laid straight onto the beams (it wasn't - there's plywood under them), because any plywood must be floating (it's screwed down) and finally, because my builders didn't use a 'levelling screed' to check the floor was flat.

I thought a levelling screed was used for a concrete slab floor, not a wooden one?! How would one ensure a wooden floor is flat before tiling over it other than with a spirit level? I had crack-free stone tiles for over a decade before the wall was moved downstairs. It certainly used to be flat!

Thanks!

Jo

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Sounds like he's trying it on. Tell your neighbour that you are not going to tolerate any ****ing about - he took down a wall, he damaged your floor, and you expect him to pay for it, or else.

Did he have Building Regulations approval for taking down a load bearing wall? Did he do it the way he'd said he would? Did he serve a notice on you as per the Party Wall Act?

 

[loply]

Sounds like he's trying it on. Tell your neighbour that you are not going to tolerate any ****ing about - he took down a wall, he damaged your floor, and you expect him to pay for it, or else.

Did he have Building Regulations approval for taking down a load bearing wall? Did he do it the way he'd said he would? Did he serve a notice on you as per the Party Wall Act?

Not to go off topic but is a downstairs wall a party wall for the flat(s) above?

 

[ree]

Your neighbour's surveyor has no more standing in the matter of your floor than the the neighbour's mother-in-law.
If you are seriously looking for a favorable resolution for yourself, then dont allow anyone in to your flat, and limit any conversations with what might become: The Other Side.

The work you claim the neighbour carried out will come under the Party Wall Act, in the Party Structures section which deals with flats.

What are your answers to the questions that you've been asked above?

 

[joanne64]

Hi, thanks for your replies. Answers to questions:

1) I was told neighbours were 'putting in new bathroom'. Actually involved putting in new French windows (needed building regs but they didn't apply. I complained, and council served contravention notice and neighbours allowed to apply retrospectively) and moving walls around. One stud wall had become load-bearing over time and when they took that down, my floor dropped a centimetre on one side.

2) They didn't evoke the Party Wall Act either. Claimed they didn't know they needed to

3) I am co-freeholder and I wasn't shown any plans.

I have had an independent surveyor in to assess my damage, but their guy is challenging everything. Grout flexibility, floor flatness, use of a levelling screed. I don't know if any of what he's saying is relevant. All I know is that I used to have a stone floor. Four years ago it got wrecked and since all the repair work was done after that wall was moved (hanging beams off other beams etc.), the damage has recurred. Is making me really miserable.

Jo

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) I was told neighbours were 'putting in new bathroom'. Actually involved putting in new French windows (needed building regs but they didn't apply. I complained, and council served contravention notice and neighbours allowed to apply retrospectively) and moving walls around. One stud wall had become load-bearing over time and when they took that down, my floor dropped a centimetre on one side.

So they were allowed to apply for, and received, Building Regulations approval to remove a load bearing wall without making adequate arrangements to provide support for what it had been supporting?

I don't think so. They've screwed up. Again.

2) They didn't evoke the Party Wall Act either. Claimed they didn't know they needed to

Not serving notices as required is not, per se, an offence. But it doesn't indicate a good level of knowledge or diligence on their part.

3) I am co-freeholder and I wasn't shown any plans.

Were you supposed to be? What have they contravened by not showing them to you?

I have had an independent surveyor in to assess my damage, but their guy is challenging everything.

Of course he is.

All I know is that I used to have a stone floor. Four years ago it got wrecked and since all the repair work was done after that wall was moved (hanging beams off other beams etc.), the damage has recurred.

Hang on though - are you saying that they moved the wall 4 years ago, your floor was damaged as a result, but you had the damage repaired, including making structural alterations to compensate for the loss of the wall, and those repairs have now failed?

 

[joanne64]

YES. New stud walls were put in downstairs when they 'repositioned' their bathroom, and their surveyor asked that some strengthening beams be attached along-side existing beams in 2 or 3 places and one beam (which was unsupported at on end once the stud wall was removed) to be hung off another using a face-fixed joist hanger, to repair the structure after removal of the load-bearing wall. That was 4 years ago. Within 18 months my floor started to crack again. Now it is split side to side and there are new cracks in my ceilings, round doors etc, plus other evidence the floor is moving/has moved (wall-mounted cupboards fine but floor-mounted cupboards directly below them have paint splitting/sheared away at the point each cupboard meets the wall. Keep in mind I had a stone floor for 15 years before that with no problems.

My neighbours didn't know the stud wall was load-bearing when they took that wall out. I accept that. It was an issue caused by the original cheap conversion of a house into 2 flats in the 60s (the beam work is a mess). What I don't accept is that the work they did to repair the damage was sufficient (it's all under a false ceiling now so I can't check) or that my floor cracking is my fault because of the wrong grout, not having used a levelling screed etc. I don't think the repairs were adequate.

I need to check what they contravened by not showing me (a freeholder) the plans.

 

[joanne64]

BTW insurance paid for the £3K of repairs to my flat 4 years ago. They won't be paying for it this time, apparently.

 

[ree]

Information about the original question seems to be trickling out - its not a good idea to be advised in bits and pieces when whoever is giving the advice doesn't know the full story.

I'd suggest that you google "party wall act" and scroll down to: the guardian home extensions 14/3/2013, and print it out. Its the best summary of the party wall act (and the process of the act) that i've seen.

In the meantime make a list of the history of this business as best you can - include all written details and names and addresses of all concerned. Do not agree to anything - period, and as i said above isolate your side from the other side.

There are free heads up call numbers to Rics party wall act experts etc. in the article but i think that you might also need a brief heads up call to a solicitor as well?

FWIW,
Serving notice is a legal requirement.
Plans must be supplied to interested parties early in the process.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I agree with you that the repairs done 4 years ago were probably inadequate - either the spec was wrong, or it wasn't done properly. And you've got evidence of movement which has nothing to do with any disputed flooring techniques.

But after 4 years, and after an interval of 2½ years since you noticed cracking, you may struggle to pin the blame.

 

[joanne64]

Sorry, didn't mean to trickle out the story. I didn't want to give people an essay to read. I assumed you guys might only help me with a single question (whether a levelling screed was appropriate on a plywood-over-beams floor) rather than digging deeper and advising on party wall stuff (thanks - VERY kind and much appreciated - I will do as advised).

I was trying to establish if their surveyor was misleading me with his reasons for the damage. This may well end up in court and he has put in writing that the blame is mine/my builders for my cracked floor. He doesn't accept any of the other damage (cracked ceilings, apparent other signs of movement etc.) is anything to do with the work that was done downstairs (I guess he wouldn't, but I'm no expert).

I was basically looking for a point where their surveyor had said something factually incorrect in writing - so I could satisfy myself that he was just clutching at straws - and I thought a levelling screed was used on a concrete slab. He is chucking round terms I don't understand and I don't know if they have any relevance or not. Maybe a lawyer just handles all that for me?!

The party wall stuff is infuriating. I have evoked it for my neighbours in the past when I had a loft extension etc. I'll go read it again as I wasn't 100% sure it applied to a shared floor/ceiling. The 2.5yr gap between me noticing the damage and taking things forward was because I was trying to be nice - they had a kid and I let them delay things. Shot myself in the foot there!

Jo

 

[ree]

As advised above, the time factor now seems to be the major factor, and as far as i can see, only an Party Wall expert or a solicitor can help you there.

By levelling screed, i assume that you mean a self levelling screed. Its perfectly normal to use it in floor work and prepping for tile. But its irrelevant to your case.


Unless their surveyor has been in your bathroom and lifted materials how can he make such claims?

As per my Guardian reference above - you are in dissent and a common surveyor is the way forward, depending, of course, on the time factor. Given that the key argument will, presumably, be the movement since your insurance repairs.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

By levelling screed, i assume that you mean a self levelling screed. Its perfectly normal to use it in floor work and prepping for tile. But its irrelevant to your case.

If the whole floor has moved due to structural problems, as evidenced by cupboards moving relative to the walls, etc, I struggle to see how a self-levelling compound would have stopped the tiles/joints from cracking.

 

[joanne64]

I think he is just trying to claim that the reason the floor cracked is because it was laid on a wonky base. Nothing to do with movement of the floor, which he has said is 'unproven'. He is asking the question 'was a screed used?' (just like he asked about flexible grout) and clearly if I say no, that's going to be the reason the floor cracked in his defence!

Thanks guys. Just for my education, I thought a screed was something like a sheet that you laid over a concrete slab before it set to ensure it set level. I can't quite get my head around how that works with a nailed down plywood floor. Does this self-levelling screed thingy sit over the wood and then the tiles sit on the screed which levels itself? SHOULD my builders have used that?! If I replace the floor again (if all this ever ends), is that should be something I ask for?

 

[ree]

You dont have to explain yourself to their surveyor - and you shouldn't.
If this dispute kicks off then its down to the experts to talk to each other, not you.

Forget about SLC. Go to the Tile forum if you want specific advise details ref tiled floors.

You really should come up with some resolution, or technical solution, because this issue will affect your insurance and any future flat sale.