Light fitting loop connection - Advice please!

[sandybeachit]

Ok I am after a little bit of advice, I am looking to swap over my light fittings (photos below).

I wanted to check if what I plan on doing is correct and yes I know to switch off the electricity before doing anything!

The two blue on the left:
Cable 1: Leads to the light fitting
Cable 2: From ceiling to the light fitting (in old and new fitting)


The two brown on the right:
Cable 1: Leads to the light fitting
Cable 2: From ceiling to the light fitting (in old and new fitting)

So these four cables makes sense to me.

Its the loop cables in the middle which throws me off, I have checked all 6 light fittings and the loops are setup differently (I have no idea how these work) so I don't want muck around and break something.



Existing light fitting:

New light fitting:

To handle the loops this diagram below seems to indicate I need to terminate them and then just leave them in the fitting doing nothing.

So from what I have described would I be doing this correctly? The main bit is the loops which through me off, moving the live/neutral connection from the old to new fitting seems simple enough, but am I doing the right thing with the three loop cables? Some of my other fittings have 1 loop cable fitted, others have none, so im not sure if I need to use them or not?

Can someone advise me on this please?

Thank You!!

Looped-in lighting wiring - the ceiling rose

www.practicaldiy.com

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[sandybeachit]

Also I have a ceiling rose in exactly this combination, so the fig 2A is how my old one looks and I think I need to wire it to be like Fig 2B.

Is this correct?

Looped-in lighting wiring - the ceiling rose

www.practicaldiy.com

 

[johnny2007]

The 2 blue cables on the left are both neutrals.
One comes from the loop, the other feeds the light fitting.

The 2 at the far right are switch live.
One comes from the switch (blue wire with brown sleeve), the other feeds the light fitting.
The 2 in the middle are the loop, so they must be connected together but not to anything else in the new fitting.

Of course earth wires are all connected together.

To put it simply after disconnecing old fitting and marking existing cables temporarily so they don't get mixed up, in your new fitting you need to connect the blue wire to the blue terminal (N), the switch live (blue wire sleeved in brown in your picture) to the brown (L) and then the earth wires together in the middle connector.
The other 2 brown wires in the middle need to go in a separate connector, I use Wago.

 

[sandybeachit]

The 2 blue cables on the left are both neutrals.
One comes from the loop, the other feeds the light fitting.

The 2 at the far left are switch live.
One comes from the switch (blue wire with brown sleeve usually), the other feeds the light fitting.
The 2 in the middle are the loop, so they must be connected together but not to anything else in the new fitting.

Of course earth wires are all connected together.

To put it simply after disconnecing old fitting and marking existingcables temporarily so they don't get mixed up, in your new fitting you need to connect the blue wire to the blue terminal (N), the switch live (blue wire sleeved in brown in your picture) to the brown (L) and then the earth wires together in the middle connector.
The other 2 brown wires in the middle need to go in a separate connector, I use Wago.

Awesome! Thank you for confirming I had this planned correctly.

I had not forgotten about marking what cables are what and taking photos of the current setup incase I want to change it back or it does not work.

What does the loop do? I know this is a dumb question but in each of my fittings some have 1 cable others 2 or 3 or the cables will be in different combinations, just wondered why they are fitted like this?

I am trying to understand what I am doing rather than just doing the changes to ensure I gain knowledge going forward?

Thanks

 

[sandybeachit]

The 2 blue cables on the left are both neutrals.
One comes from the loop, the other feeds the light fitting.

The 2 at the far right are switch live.
One comes from the switch (blue wire with brown sleeve), the other feeds the light fitting.
The 2 in the middle are the loop, so they must be connected together but not to anything else in the new fitting.

Of course earth wires are all connected together.

To put it simply after disconnecing old fitting and marking existing cables temporarily so they don't get mixed up, in your new fitting you need to connect the blue wire to the blue terminal (N), the switch live (blue wire sleeved in brown in your picture) to the brown (L) and then the earth wires together in the middle connector.
The other 2 brown wires in the middle need to go in a separate connector, I use Wago.

Also with the ago terminal connector, would you wire the three loop wires into one single wago connector or have three wago connectors, one for each wire?

Just wondering what is the best way to do this (safest way)?

Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

Bearing in mind that there needs to be electricity at the light supplied through Live and Neutral wires, and

that there is a switch somewhere (connected with the same sort of cable) which needs to switch on and off the light,

can you work out what is happening?



Some/most times there is another cable taking the power to the next light.

 

[sandybeachit]

View attachment 272779

Bearing in mind that there needs to be electricity at the light supplied through Live and Neutral wires, and

that there is a switch somewhere (connected with the same sort of cable) which needs to switch on and off the light,

can you work out what is happening?

I think so, going on the above diagram the two neutral I have seen in the current rose fitting earthing it, so those i need to unscrew and rescrew to the new rose fitting

The two in the middle of the photo (the black cable and black cable with red on) are the live and earth cables which on my original rose are on the outside of each cable connecting to the terminator and then rose connects to that passing on the connection.

Above the two red on the right are the loop wires being terminated off.

I think I have the wiring right, its just the loop which alludes to me, I do worry I will break something by not using it, what is the point of the loop if I don't need it in my new fitting?

 

[opps]

The loop is the permanently live cables (it is a radial set up), one runs down the to the light switch and then back to to the ceiling rose as a switched live. The other permanent live comes from/to a neighbouring ceiling rose. If you have 2 or 3 loop wires, they will need to go in to the same Wago, or similar.

BTW I am not an electrician.

Edit- don't forget to use connect the earth cables, your new light need to be earthed.

 

[johnny2007]

Yes, the loop all in the same Wago, otherwise you'll lose light somewhere.
When I say same Wago, I mean one connector with 2 holes.
Don't stuff 2 wires in the same hole

 

[sandybeachit]

The loop is the permanently live cables (it is a radial set up), one runs down the to the light switch and then back to to the ceiling rose as a switched live. The other permanent live comes from/to a neighbouring ceiling rose. If you have 2 or 3 loop wires, they will need to go in to the same Wago, or similar.

BTW I am not an electrician.

Edit- don't forget to use connect the earth cables, your new light need to be earthed.

Awesome thanks, I wasn't sure these were live (the loop cables), but I was going on the logic of "If I don't know what the cable does, then treat it like a live cable".

Right ok this makes sense now.

Thanks! I'll be sure to document my light fittings before I do anything so if I screw up I can undo what I do and what sh*t my pants trying to figure out what to do and yes I'll label the cables as per your advice!

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think so, going on the above diagram the two neutral I have seen in the current rose fitting earthing it, so those i need to unscrew and rescrew to the new rose fitting

There is only ONE Neutral.

The two in the middle of the photo (the black cable and black cable with red on) are the live and neutral cables

No, they are THE Neutral and the SWITCHED LIVE.

which on my original rose are on the outside of each cable connecting to the terminator and then rose connects to that passing on the connection.

Yes

Above the two red on the right are the loop wires being terminated off.

I think I have the wiring right, its just the loop which alludes to me, I do worry I will break something by not using it, what is the point of the loop if I don't need it in my new fitting?

It connects the supply live to the other red which takes power to the switch.

 

[sandybeachit]

Yes, the loop all in the same Wago, otherwise you'll lose light somewhere.
When I say same Wago, I mean one connector with 2 holes.
Don't stuff 2 wires in the same hole

Don't stuff 2 wires in the same hole = Some like that sort of thing lol!

Ok dumb question, now I get what you mean by one cable one connector hole.

What happens if you put two cables in one hole, will it short the circuit? I am guessing that or an electrical fire etc, I would like to know what could go wrong.

I have zero electrical knowledge so I am finding this an interesting DIY project.

 

[sandybeachit]

The loop is the permanently live cables (it is a radial set up), one runs down the to the light switch and then back to to the ceiling rose as a switched live.

As I'll be terminating all the loop cables, you mentioned it goes to the light switch, surely my light switch will keep working after terminating the loop cables? I don't see why it would suddenly stop working?

 

[plugwash]

I am trying to understand what I am doing rather than just doing the changes to ensure I gain knowledge going forward?

Well done, too many people try and approach lighting in a "painting by numbers" manner.

A switch works by interrupting the live feed to a light. If you were wiring with single wires, you would take the permanent live to the switches, the neutrals to the lights and then take a switched live wire from each switch to the corresponding light.

But while single wires in conduit or double insulated single wires are legitimate installation methods, most of the time in the UK (other countries may vary) we don't use single wires, we use cables. There are a few common arrangements for wiring lights with cables:

1. The "loop at light" method, "circuit cables" carrying permanent live and neutral are routed to the lights, then a "switch cable" takes permanent live down to the switch and brings switched live back.
2. the "loop at switch" method, "circuit cables" carrying permanent live and neutral are routed to the switches, then a "cable to lighting point", takes switched live and neutral to the light.
3. the "junction box" method, "circuit cables" carrying permanent live and neutral are routed to junction boxes, then a "switch cable" takes permanent live down to the switch and brings switched live back and finally a "cable to lighting point", takes switched live and neutral to the light.

With the loop at light method the permanent live conductor is joined at the light fitting location, but does not actually connect to the light. Similarly with the loop at switch method, the neutral is joined at the switch location but does not actually connect to the switch.

"twin brown and earth" ("twin red an earth" on older installations) cable does exist, but most installers don't want to carry an extra roll of cable if they don't have to, and it's sometimes useful to be able to distinguish permanent live from switched live. So most of the time regular twin and earth is used for switch drops. The switched-live should be marked with brown (red on older installations) sleeving but often isn't.

Traditional UK ceiling roses and batten holders usually have a built-in "loop" terminal, which is used to join the permanent live conductors together. With other types of fitting sometimes the manufacturer provides a loop terminal, but often they don't. So you often have to provide a suitable terminal yourself, or in extreme cases even convert the setup to a junction box setup.

Finally it's important to remember those that these methods are not the be-all and end-all of lighting wiring, there are countless possible combinations and variants of the basic methods. This is why we *always* advise people to carefully record the existing wiring before dismantling.

 

[opps]

Just so that you are aware, as I said, one of those loop cables runs down to the light switch, the return path, which is the blue cable with the brown sleeving is the switch live. ie it only become live when the light switch in the on position.