Lights will not switch off
- Thread starter stevedo
- Start date
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no i was suggesting that the motor is picking up it's neutral return through one of the lamps, we have already proved that the timer doesn't control the circuit as the yellow wire is out therefore the motor wouldn't be necessarily shorted. Remember this is only a guess at the moment and may very well prove to be flawed yet.Paul_C said:
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B
breezer
cant be wrong timer as it used to work until recently
[Before I start: always turn off the power before connecting/disconnecting wires and make a note of what goes where]
Surely if you disconnect the motorized switch and the other switch next to it completely and the lights are still on then the problem is not with those two switches. At this point I'd put the bare ends in Choc-blocs to stop them touching each other or me.
Assuming red is live, blue is neutral and yellow is switched live:
With the switches disconnected and the power on you could measure, using a meter and appropriate safety precautions, the voltage in the 3C+E coming from the wall, between the red wire and blue wire to confirm 240 and also the red and yellow and blue and yellow. I suspect the red and yellow will be close to 0 and the blue and yellow will be about 240.
If the blue to yellow is about 80-120v then it's floating, ie not connected. If it's zero then it's held to the neutral somewhere. If it's 240 then it's held to live somewhere and you will have to trace where the cables go. It would be interesting to know what you are getting.
While the motorised switch is disconnected it might be worth testing it by wiring it to a plug on the feed side and switched live out to a lamp. Leave it running for a bit to check motor/time, correct and reliable switching using the pins and also the over-ride.
Best of luck
*
IANAElectrician etc.
Surely if you disconnect the motorized switch and the other switch next to it completely and the lights are still on then the problem is not with those two switches. At this point I'd put the bare ends in Choc-blocs to stop them touching each other or me.
Assuming red is live, blue is neutral and yellow is switched live:
With the switches disconnected and the power on you could measure, using a meter and appropriate safety precautions, the voltage in the 3C+E coming from the wall, between the red wire and blue wire to confirm 240 and also the red and yellow and blue and yellow. I suspect the red and yellow will be close to 0 and the blue and yellow will be about 240.
If the blue to yellow is about 80-120v then it's floating, ie not connected. If it's zero then it's held to the neutral somewhere. If it's 240 then it's held to live somewhere and you will have to trace where the cables go. It would be interesting to know what you are getting.
While the motorised switch is disconnected it might be worth testing it by wiring it to a plug on the feed side and switched live out to a lamp. Leave it running for a bit to check motor/time, correct and reliable switching using the pins and also the over-ride.
Best of luck
*
IANAElectrician etc.
well it worked to a fashion, the single way(the way it's been connected) switch in the timer would switch on and off the lamps until the "hidden" switch had been activated and now has control, it's anyones guess how a badly connected /wired two way setup could work possibly acting as two switches that instead of acting in the normal expected way of two way switching are perhaps now parallel switches? again all guesswork until more info is derived.breezer said:
Most likely explanation seems to be either a short between red and yellow due to nail or the like, or due to a parallel switch having been switched.
The switch idea makes sense to me. There is a timer inside to turn on the lights automatically, with a switch in series to turn off the timer. But surely you might want to turn on the lights when the timer was not operating? OK, the timer override might do this, but you might want to do it from the shed. So hunt about for a switch. Otherwise, trace the wiring and check any junction boxes for stray wires or shorts.
The switch idea makes sense to me. There is a timer inside to turn on the lights automatically, with a switch in series to turn off the timer. But surely you might want to turn on the lights when the timer was not operating? OK, the timer override might do this, but you might want to do it from the shed. So hunt about for a switch. Otherwise, trace the wiring and check any junction boxes for stray wires or shorts.
P
Paul_C
Agreed, we don't have the full picture, but as I see it you were suggesting that this 3-core cable was once one end of a simple 2-way circuit which somebody had converted to the timer, right?kendor said:
My argument is that such a conversion could never have worked properly in the first place, and Steve said that it was working until recently. Maybe he has another switch he doesn't know about yet, but I take that to mean that the timer was running and turning on and off at the correct times.
Yes, the timer could have "borrowed" its neutral via the lamps, because the resistance of the lamp filaments is much lower than that of the timer motor. But once a switch (either the timer one or the "mystery" switch elsewhere) applied power to the lights, the timer would lose its neutral. The only other lines at this end of that 3-core cable would either be at 240V or open-circuit, so the timer would stop.
(There is actually one way it could have worked like that, and that's if this was wired as the infamous "California/Chicago/French 3-way" arrangement. But as I've never seen such a wiring arrangement in a British house, I think it's most unlikely. )
From the evidence presented so far, I go with Damocles' verdict: Either a short in the wiring (red to yellow), or there's a parallel switch somewhere else which has been closed and not yet discovered.
Hi all, me again. Hope you all had a great Christmas.
My problem still persists. In order to answer Kendor's earlier question I removed all three bulbs from their holders and the timer motor still runs. I have dismantled each of the lanterns and their is no obvious sign of any damage inside any of them. I have again looked for another switch and cannot find one and do not recall having switched anything else. I have not done any DIY anywhere near that area of the house.
For now I have removed all bulbs and put everything back. This way I can still use the lights in the garage.
Any idea where I go from here?
PS for my wifes benefit, does anyone have an explanation for why the elcetricity does not "fall out" when you remove a bulb?
My problem still persists. In order to answer Kendor's earlier question I removed all three bulbs from their holders and the timer motor still runs. I have dismantled each of the lanterns and their is no obvious sign of any damage inside any of them. I have again looked for another switch and cannot find one and do not recall having switched anything else. I have not done any DIY anywhere near that area of the house.
For now I have removed all bulbs and put everything back. This way I can still use the lights in the garage.
Any idea where I go from here?
PS for my wifes benefit, does anyone have an explanation for why the elcetricity does not "fall out" when you remove a bulb?
When you removed the covers of the fittings that refused to switch off, was it obvious how they connected to each oither and then to the switch- I mean was the other end of the 3 core cable visible at one of them ? Or had it mutated to red and black before reaching the fittings - if so I think a check up of where is that joint is in order. Otherwise is one of the fittings wired as 'loop through' i.e. with a steady live?
I'd sort of expect the lights to be daisy chained one from the other but one to be the loop-through live and have the switch wires, or for there to be an as yet unfound joint box somewhere. (if its in a plaster board ceiling don't rule out the use of mirrors on sticks - think dentist!)
If these questions make no sense then perhaps 3 more pics would be in order (one per light fitting, showing the wires exposed)?
I suspect it's one of those where its really obvious after you have the missing piece!!
I'd sort of expect the lights to be daisy chained one from the other but one to be the loop-through live and have the switch wires, or for there to be an as yet unfound joint box somewhere. (if its in a plaster board ceiling don't rule out the use of mirrors on sticks - think dentist!)
If these questions make no sense then perhaps 3 more pics would be in order (one per light fitting, showing the wires exposed)?
I suspect it's one of those where its really obvious after you have the missing piece!!
Hi Kendor,
in answer to your question, yes the garage lights still work when the yellow wire is disconnected.
mapj1, the cable into the back of the lights is red and black. The left and right lights have one cable only, the one in the middle has 2, I guess this just means that they are daisy chained together. I have no idea where these cables go as this part of the house was extended a number of years ago and there is no obvious way of tracing them without removing bricks etc and I don't want to do that!
For the moment I have installed some low energy light sensitive bulbs so that I can continue to use the garage lights without having to use the switch at the CU.
in answer to your question, yes the garage lights still work when the yellow wire is disconnected.
mapj1, the cable into the back of the lights is red and black. The left and right lights have one cable only, the one in the middle has 2, I guess this just means that they are daisy chained together. I have no idea where these cables go as this part of the house was extended a number of years ago and there is no obvious way of tracing them without removing bricks etc and I don't want to do that!
For the moment I have installed some low energy light sensitive bulbs so that I can continue to use the garage lights without having to use the switch at the CU.
Curiouser and curiouser - if they were just chained, then at least two of them should have 2 wires, or one of them 3, as the power has to come in from somewhere, as well as them all link together. Certainly this means that somewhere is at least one joint, maybe two, where something has gone astray - this sort of fault is exactly the reason that buried junction boxes are a real no-no. Apart from ignoring the old wireing and adding a new switch and feed over the surface it is very difficult to see what can be done now that doesn't involve some degree of opening-up, assuming you are not happy with your current temporary fix of course.
very, very bad luck.
M.
very, very bad luck.
M.
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