Listed Building Consent problem

[anshandan]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, so please bear with me if I make any faux pas

Right, the story:

I own a flat in a B listed building. The whole building was gutted and remodeled internally in 1989, ceilings lowered, all plasterwork gone, no fireplaces or any other features. Basically, the inside is like a 1990 new build, and the flats were all split up/cobbled together, mine includes 2 rooms which were in the next block, so I have the gable end wall inside my property. I could go on but you get the idea.

March 2013 I phoned the council planning dept. and asked if I needed LBC to make some internal modifications, these being: creating an new internal kitchen + small shower room in part of the existing (large) kitchen and part of the (large and unused) hall/hall cupboard. Told unequivocally "No need" if I was doing nothing to the external features of the flat. Actually, I was made to feel like it was a slightly stupid question. This duty planning officer referred me to building control.

So, I went ahead and did the work over the summer. Then met with the architect I had used for the plans in Sept. and he told me about another client who had ended up having to apply retrospectively for LBC when they sold a property in the same situation. This made me phone the council again for clarification.

The duty planning officer on this occasion told me the opposite of the first one: yes I need to apply.

The architect put the application in, and it has been refused. The basis for this seems to be (not entirely clear from the very brief letter in planning language) that "The preservation or reinstatement of circulation spaces including corridors, interior halls and landings and all associated original detailing is encouraged, with any proposed alterations to be submitted in detail for assessment." However, the hall in this flat was not an original feature of the property, it was actually created by dividing another room.

Obviously I can appeal but just wondered if anyone had any thoughts?

I feel very aggrieved with the original advice, but although I know the exact time of the call, I have no other proof of what was said. I would like to complain formally to the council, but don't suppose it would be that helpful.

I would have been more than happy to work with the council to come up with a solution but because of their actions I was not given that opportunity.

 

[Architexeter]

Ok,

This does unfortunately happen where you get told one thing and it turns out to be incorrect.

The decision will only have a short description as to the reason for refusal. You should look at the officer's report and the conservation officer's consultation which should be availiable online. Basically get up to speed on the specific reason for refusal.

If the reasons relate to historical alterations then make sure that the council know this and specifically what you are applying for.

It sounds like the council are taking the opportunity to reinstate historical features and that more detail is needed.

Did the planning/conservation do a site visit, internally? If not, arrange a site meeting to move things forwards from here.

There is no immunity from LBC so the council can enforce that previously un-approved alterations to be rectified.

Your architect should be able to advise you further. Let me know your thoughts once you are up to speed.

Regarding the verbal advice on whether LBC was necessary, a polite letter to the chief executive explaining your frustration but that you are trying to get this resolved, would be fed down the the planners and make them aware that they should bend over backwards to try and get this resolved as you were proactive in trying to get the necessary consents.

Hope that helps

 

[tony1851]

Verbal advice from planning officers is worthless - it should always be in writing.

Your architect should have been aware that you would need to make an application - did he raise this issue?

All you can do now is appeal on the grounds that the interior had already been butchered in the 1989 conversion. Presumably the council OK'd the previous alterations, so it seems odd that they should refuse now?

 

[anshandan]

Ok,

This does unfortunately happen where you get told one thing and it turns out to be incorrect.

The decision will only have a short description as to the reason for refusal. You should look at the officer's report and the conservation officer's consultation which should be availiable online. Basically get up to speed on the specific reason for refusal.

If the reasons relate to historical alterations then make sure that the council know this and specifically what you are applying for.

It sounds like the council are taking the opportunity to reinstate historical features and that more detail is needed.

Did the planning/conservation do a site visit, internally? If not, arrange a site meeting to move things forwards from here.

There is no immunity from LBC so the council can enforce that previously un-approved alterations to be rectified.

Your architect should be able to advise you further. Let me know your thoughts once you are up to speed.

Regarding the verbal advice on whether LBC was necessary, a polite letter to the chief executive explaining your frustration but that you are trying to get this resolved, would be fed down the the planners and make them aware that they should bend over backwards to try and get this resolved as you were proactive in trying to get the necessary consents.

Hope that helps

thanks for all that.

No site visit was done, I was expecting it, but never happened.

I had a look online and there is nothing in the case details except our submissions to the council.

I only know what the original (or at least the pre 1990) layout was because I have viewed the plans re. the development at the council offices on microfiche.

 

[Architexeter]

I'd arrange a site meeting with you architect and the conservation officer, I'd like to think by the end of meeting you will all know where you stand and a revised application can then be submitted for approval.

 

[anshandan]

Verbal advice from planning officers is worthless - it should always be in writing.

Your architect should have been aware that you would need to make an application - did he raise this issue?

All you can do now is appeal on the grounds that the interior had already been butchered in the 1989 conversion. Presumably the council OK'd the previous alterations, so it seems odd that they should refuse now?

Totally agree, with hindsight that I should have got it in writing, but why do they provide an advice line phone number if you can't rely on it? Very frustrating for joe public like me.

I am not sure the person viewing the application would even be aware that the apartments in my building were radically remodeled, perhaps they assume that the flat is as it was when constructed? They didn't come out to see anyway.

Thing is, the advice I was given originally on the phone, actually made perfect sense: the external aspects of the building are worth preserving but the internal are not, because the layouts are not original and there are literally no features.

 

[anshandan]

I'd arrange a site meeting with you architect and the conservation officer, I'd like to think by the end of meeting you will all know where you stand and a revised application can then be submitted for approval.

I am going to be in for a lot more expense if I have to rip out what has just been put in. As I said, I'd have been more than happy to take their views onboard and work with them at the outset, I don't have funds to re-do all the work.

 

[Architexeter]

Thing is, the advice I was given originally on the phone, actually made perfect sense: the external aspects of the building are worth preserving but the internal are not, because the layouts are not original and there are literally no features.

Its unfortunately still covered for LBC - I've had to get LBC for demolition of a concrete prefab garage as its within the curtilage/grounds of a listed building. Rules are rules even if its clearly a no-brainer.

 

[Architexeter]

I am going to be in for a lot more expense if I have to rip out what has just been put in. As I said, I'd have been more than happy to take their views onboard and work with them at the outset, I don't have funds to re-do all the work.

It seems very bizarre that they have not seen the inside of the building. They may be fine with it?!

What are your options, leave it as is - are/will the council chase you?

If the council dont chase, it will only potentially come up if/when you sell your property.

Very frustrating I can imagine.

 

[anshandan]

I am going to be in for a lot more expense if I have to rip out what has just been put in. As I said, I'd have been more than happy to take their views onboard and work with them at the outset, I don't have funds to re-do all the work.

It seems very bizarre that they have not seen the inside of the building. They may be fine with it?!

What are your options, leave it as is - are/will the council chase you?

If the council dont chase, it will only potentially come up if/when you sell your property.

Very frustrating I can imagine.

That's one of my problems: do I say/do nothing and wait until I want to sell which could be years off, or do I try to sort it out now, because a) I have been put in this position as a result of being misinformed by the council and b) what I have done has no impact on the historic value of the building.

Hence my question on this forum

Thanks for answers, anyone else got a view/comment?

 

[rjm2k]

That's one of my problems: do I say/do nothing and wait until I want to sell which could be years off,

Unfortunately, now that a retrospective application has been refused it will show up straight away on any searches when you sell and only cause you grief especially if you need to sell in a hurry.

IMHO, better to sort it out now. Find out as much as possible about the original conversion constraints, ie if they consider the inside to be unimportant it may help your case with any appeals etc.

 

[anshandan]

That's one of my problems: do I say/do nothing and wait until I want to sell which could be years off,

Unfortunately, now that a retrospective application has been refused it will show up straight away on any searches when you sell and only cause you grief especially if you need to sell in a hurry.

IMHO, better to sort it out now. Find out as much as possible about the original conversion constraints, ie if they consider the inside to be unimportant it may help your case with any appeals etc.

Re. this last point, how do I go about finding out more about the original constraints? All I can find re. the buildings listing relates to the outside of the property.

Thanks for all the replies. I am not sure what to do next tbh.

What pains me most, is that I know that if during my original call to the council planning dept. they had indicated in any way I should consult with the conservation officer, I'd have been pleased to do this. I had no reason not to. There would have been various options we might have considered but I was told I had no worries re. LBC.

 

[rjm2k]

Re. this last point, how do I go about finding out more about the original constraints? All I can find re. the buildings listing relates to the outside of the property.

As part of the planning application/listed building consent to convert there should be a conservation officers report, or reference to/consideration of one etc.

If the only references to conservation are regarding the exterior then I would expect the interior wasn't considered important at the time so shouldn't be now. But who knows, LA's seem to do what they like and make up/change rules each day!

 

[tony1851]

All I can find re. the buildings listing relates to the outside of the property.

When properties are initially listed, there is usually a short note on the council's records identifying features of importance, eg perhaps an impressive entrance porch, or elaborate brick or masonry detailing etc.

Similarly for the interior, the notes might refer to such things as an impressive original fireplace, or maybe evidence of a much older (eg. medieval) building.

But in your case, if there is no mention of any internal features, and the notes presumably only refer to the exterior, you should be in a better position for an appeal. If there was anything worth saving internally, that should have been recorded when it was listed.