Loose ceiling joists

[hands]

Hi all.

I've had a trawl through the site (and the internet at large) but haven't been able to find someone who's had a similar issue, so here goes:

We're currently in the process of renovating our house and in taking the bathroom ceiling down have found that the 1st floor ceiling joists are just resting on the top of the wall. The house dates from around 1850 and has solid brick external walls. This may not be a problem in and of itself, but it looks like the joists were nailed into the wooden wall plate at some point (there are some protruding nails and notches in the joists) and have come away. The ceiling joists run front to back and I have found that all the joists have the same issue at both ends. The wallplate on both the front and rear external walls is on top of the outer course of bricks. There are no internal brick walls but the joists do seem to be resting on an original studwork wall that runs the width of the house.

Here's a picture of an end of one of the joists:

Untitled

• hands
• 25 Jan 2013
• 1

The roof was redone around 15-20 years ago.

There are two issues:

1. How do I secure the ceiling joists?
2. Is the roof spreading and how might I be able to tell?

My other half and I have had a couple ideas for securing the joists, non of which we have found satisfactory:

1. Remove the top course of bricks on the inner half of the solid wall (many of which are loose anyway), replace with a wooden wallplate and secure the joists using some inverted joist hangers.

2. Reset the bricks, add a wallplate on top and the cut back the joists and hang them off the new wallplate

3. Extend the joists to the existing wallplate and secure.

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, they would be much appreciated.

P.S. Apologies for the long post!

 

[pinenot]

I would suggest first off you spike a 2"x3" binder along all the joist ends where they meet the rafters. Push the 3"x2s" through the joists into the attic space, push them between the crux of the rafter and joist ends and nail/screw these to bind all the roof members together. That will remove any movement.
Unless there's any obvious denigration of the wall heads, this action will suffice, but you may want to re-point the internal wall heads.

 

[tony1851]

[quote crux [/quote]?

 

[hands]

I would suggest first off you spike a 2"x3" binder along all the joist ends where they meet the rafters. Push the 3"x2s" through the joists into the attic space, push them between the crux of the rafter and joist ends and nail/screw these to bind all the roof members together. That will remove any movement.
Unless there's any obvious denigration of the wall heads, this action will suffice, but you may want to re-point the internal wall heads.

Hi pinenot; thanks for your suggestion.

I'm not sure what you mean by spike (nail???), but does what you're suggesting look something like what I've drawn below? If so, I'm guessing we'll have to deal with the irregular/split ends of each joist!

Untitled

• hands
• 26 Jan 2013
• 1

hands.

 

[noseall]

That's an odd arrangement and would have building control spitting feathers! The ceiling joists usually rest upon the wall plate and not butted to it.

Is there a purlin higher up or collars?

If not and if all the joists are the same i would suggest getting some collars fixed low down spanning the whole roof in order to get some restraint in there quick!

 

[maltaron]

Noseall, look at the build date! Building control did'n't exist and construction methods were dependant on the local builder. Its stood for 160 years so cant be that bad. However, I agree that its a bum construction.

 

[pinenot]

Yes "spike" nail, (sorry joiner speak) it means fix together hard with nails.
I would suggest you use galvanized nails and cramps if required. The idea is to create a monolith out of all the timber parts forming the roof structure, that way it's unable to move so to speak.
The last comment re building control, would apply only if it was not existing, and again if the brickwork that the ceiling joist ends are sitting on is sound there should be know need to worry.
Admittedly if you were putting on the roof new the joists should sit on the wall plate not behind it, that's what a wall plate is for. However older building have older quirks and who knows what the roof layout was before the re-roofing (I think you said approx 12 years ago)

 

[pinenot]

Yes "spike" nail, (sorry joiner speak) it means fix together hard with nails.
See image as this is where I meant the binders should be placed.
I would suggest you use galvanized nails and cramps if required. The idea is to create a monolith out of all the timber parts forming the roof structure, that way it's unable to move so to speak.
The last comment re building control, would apply only if it was not existing, and again if the brickwork that the ceiling joist ends are sitting on is sound there should be know need to worry.
Admittedly if you were putting on the roof new the joists should sit on the wall plate not behind it, that's what a wall plate is for. However older building have older quirks and who knows what the roof layout was before the re-roofing (I think you said approx 12 years ago)View media item 55826 [/img]

 

[noseall]

Guys guys guys, i know all about the date of the post and that it is not building control relevant.

My point was that building control, structural engineers and anyone else worth their salt for that matter would baulk at seeing something as important as a restraining joist, end-grain nailed.

I would advise the o.p. gets some galv angle plates and screw them at the junction as a quick fix.

 

[hands]

Noseall - we did think of using some angle plates but the distance between the inner part of the notch on the joist and the wallplate edge is about 2.5" (60mm+). Also, there are purlins (one on each pitch, front and back) and collars (only two, one at each party wall end - not that we have solid party walls in the attic!)

Pinenot - thanks for the clarification. With that method, would it be worth fixing the 3x2 to the rafters and/or wall plate to tie everything together, perhaps with some angle brackets? Also, we've got a whole load of C16 24 wood that we've bought for studwork - would it be worth sistering the existing joists with these (notching, say, 10mm at the bottom and chamfering at the top so there's a good section of it siting on the wall plate) instead of using the 3x2 binders? The only issue is that these would be sloped compared to the current (slightly sagging) joists.

 

[dann09]

FWIW:

you can source Simpson tie-in straps ( or similar ) that will pick up your rafter tail and wall plate and run along the top edge of the joist. Only use screws. Screw into every strap screw hole.

Walls must be tied-in, esp. older walls. Often you can get away with it in an older property, but if conditions do go south then the top of the wall will begin to lean. For instance, older gable pikes are notorious for leaning out.

I'm sure that the other guys will take you thro how, and where to fix tie-in straps.

 

[hands]

FWIW:

you can source Simpson tie-in straps ( or similar ) that will pick up your rafter tail and wall plate and run along the top edge of the joist. Only use screws. Screw into every strap screw hole.

Walls must be tied-in, esp. older walls. Often you can get away with it in an older property, but if conditions do go south then the top of the wall will begin to lean. For instance, older gable pikes are notorious for leaning out.

I'm sure that the other guys will take you thro how, and where to fix tie-in straps.

dann09 - that sounds great - if only the ceiling joists coincided with the rafter tails. Got to love the character in period properties!

 

[pinenot]

I would suggest no truss clips between rafter and wall plate, truss clips are used to bind lightweight roofs against uplift (suction)
Hold down straps fitted at each corner(ish) will bind the monolithic roof structure to the building, just make sure the ones you choose are long enough to affix to sound brickwork. You can get these at any builders merchants or indeed online, however weight of goods and P/P may be costly. Have a look - //media.diynot.com/199000_198202_55839_19400407_thumb.jpg

 

[noseall]

I would suggest no truss clips between rafter and wall plate, truss clips are used to bind lightweight roofs against uplift (suction)
Hold down straps fitted at each corner(ish) will bind the monolithic roof structure to the building, just make sure the ones you choose are long enough to affix to sound brickwork. You can get these at any builders merchants or indeed online, however weight of goods and P/P may be costly. Have a look - //media.diynot.com/199000_198202_55839_19400407_thumb.jpg[/QUOTE]
Are you pi$$ed or have i read your post wrong?

Did anybody mention truss clips or are you recommending them????

 

[hands]

Pinenot - you'll have to excuse me as I'm a little confused here - I still don't quite understand how the 3"x2" binder stops the joists from moving as the joists would not be attached to anything except the binder near their ends.

First task for tomorrow is to re-lay some of the loose bricks in the top course of the inner wall!

hands.