Loss Of Supply - (PIC)

[JohnW2]

20 is an old CB radio slang.

Slang for what? I'm only familiar with amateur radio jargon and, unless my memory is failing me, there's no "20" there - 73, 88, 55 and others, yes, but not a 20 I can recall!

The impressive thing with that switch is getting 4 cables terminated in it.

Yes, I thought that, too. MK 45A switches do say that the terminals can accommodate 1 x 16mm² conductors (which I guess is what they are), but the 'required box depth' table only goes up to 10mm² cable (for which they say that a 55mm deep box is required - and I can't say I've personally seen deeper than 47mm!),

I'm a little surprised that folk haven't got a bit more excited over the fact that it is (was) a 45A switch!

Kind Regards, John

 

[davelx]

20 is an old CB radio slang.

Slang for what? I'm only familiar with amateur radio jargon and, unless my memory is failing me, there's no "20" there - 73, 88, 55 and others, yes, but not a 20 I can recall!

1020 - my location - see my post just before yours!

 

[JohnW2]

1020 - my location - see my post just before yours!

Yep, I was typing whilst you posted. Thanks - so QTH

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Codes or cyphers are not permitted with amateur radio, in fact not allowed with CB either so since the 10 code was originally a police code it not permitted.

However although the Q code has code in the name it is considered as an aid to communications rather than a code so is permitted with amateur radio however it should really be only used with CW (Morse Code) it should not be really used with voice although the more common ones often are.

QSL

 

[JohnW2]

Codes or cyphers are not permitted with amateur radio ...

Yes, that's always been the case, but I don't think that something which is widely published can be regarded as a 'code or cipher'.

However although the Q code has code in the name it is considered as an aid to communications rather than a code so is permitted with amateur radio however it should really be only used with CW (Morse Code) it should not be really used with voice although the more common ones often are.

I can't say that I've ever seen any 'rule' saying that Q-codes should not be used in voice communications and, as you say, a good few are used all the time 'by voice'. Again, the 'Q-code' first appeared over 100 years ago, and has always been widely published, so could not be regarded as any sort of 'code or cipher'! The same goes for the numerical 'codes' used (both verbally and in morse code) in amateur radio like those I mentioned before (73, 88, 55 etc.). Since there is absolutely no 'secrecy' surrounding their meaning, they cannot really be regarded as a 'code or cipher'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Codes or cyphers are not permitted with amateur radio

There is no realistic way to detect, and therefore to do anything about, the use of coded messages.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I can't say that I've ever seen any 'rule' saying that Q-codes should not be used in voice communications and, as you say, a good few are used all the time 'by voice'.

Indeed.

I've not read either ICAO Doc 6100-COM/504/1 or Doc 8400-4, but I am nevertheless as certain as I can be that they do not mandate the use of Morse code by pilots.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

I heard it on Dragnet first.

 

[securespark]

I'm a little surprised that folk haven't got a bit more excited over the fact that it is (was) a 45A switch!

Crabtree switches are very robust.


Apologies for causing confusion re the number!

 

[JohnW2]

I'm a little surprised that folk haven't got a bit more excited over the fact that it is (was) a 45A switch!

Crabtree switches are very robust.

Well they may be, but I think I remain surprised

Apologies for causing confusion re the number!

No problem - it was educational. I suppose I should have guessed, but I've never moved in CB circles (only amateur radio ones), so "10-4" (from it's ubiquitous use on both small and big screens!) is about the only one I'm familiar with!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I can't say that I've ever seen any 'rule' saying that Q-codes should not be used in voice communications and, as you say, a good few are used all the time 'by voice'.

Indeed. I've not read either ICAO Doc 6100-COM/504/1 or Doc 8400-4, but I am nevertheless as certain as I can be that they do not mandate the use of Morse code by pilots.

I think eric was talking specifically about 'rules' in relation to amateur radio usage but, although it's over 50 years since I had to mug up those regs for an exam, like you, I'm pretty certain that they never contained such a rule.

The reasons for prohibiting 'codes and ciphers' in amateur radio transmissions is clear enough and, as I said, any widely published 'code' surely cannot come into the spirit of that categorisation, whether being used by voice, Morse code, semaphore or any other means of transmission!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

"I am sorry to tell you that Aunt Mabel has died".

How can you tell that's a code (unless you knew that neither party had a recently deceased Aunt Mable)?

 

[JohnW2]

"I am sorry to tell you that Aunt Mabel has died". How can you tell that's a code (unless you knew that neither party had a recently deceased Aunt Mable)?

Quite so - but I suppose regulations can at least try - "XZQWT", whether spoken or in Morse code, would be a more obviously suspicious case!

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Codes or cyphers are not permitted with amateur radio

There is no realistic way to detect, and therefore to do anything about, the use of coded messages.

True. But this however does not stop it being against the rules, which I believe was the point being made.

Section 97.113 contains the specific prohibitions. In summary, your amateur station may not transmit:

Communications specifically prohibited by the Rules;
Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in the Rules;
Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer. You may, however, notify other amateur operators of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis;
Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in Section 97.113; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as provided for space telecommand (see Section 97.211(b)), telecommand of model craft (seeSection 97.215(b)), and RTTY and data emission codes (see Section 97.309(b)); obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification;
Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services.

Incidently, pilots were required to able to identify NDB (beacons) by their morse ids. Don't know if the docs mentioned defined this. I see no reason why this should not still be the case.

 

[JohnW2]

Codes or cyphers are not permitted with amateur radio

There is no realistic way to detect, and therefore to do anything about, the use of coded messages.

True. But this however does not stop it being against the rules, which I believe was the point being made.

Quite so - and one of the reasons for that is so that, if perpetrators do get caught, action can be taken - whether by revocation of licence, prosecution or whatever. In any event, BAS's sweeping generalisation is only true in relation to certain types of coded messages - so the rules can at least be enforced in relation to overtly-coded messages (i.e. those which clearly are not in 'plain language').

In view of what was being discussed with eric, I think the regulation you quote should perhaps refer to "secret codes or ciphers" (although they do add "...intended to obscure the meaning thereof"), since there is really no issue with the use of 'non-secret' 'codes'/jargon (like the Q-code).

Kind Regards, John