Mains stopvalve seized - help please!

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Hello everyone,

I've just moved into a 1930s end-terrace house which has mainly copper plumbing, but an original, lead rising main.

The main stopvalve is in the corner of the kitchen, almost at ground level, behind a kitchen unit and has lead pipes entering and leaving it. The kitchen has been re-plastered at some point, so the body of the valve and the pipes are embedded in the plaster. The spindle is seized and the previous owner has managed to tear the handle off it trying to close it :eek:

At the moment, I can switch off the water at the stopvalve in my drive - but this seems to isolate all the other houses in the terrace too :oops:

As it was caked with years of grime and plaster, I've cleaned it with a wire brush and appliance de-scaler, so at least I can see what I'm doing now. Also, I've sprayed liberally with WD40 and will leave that overnight - or longer.

My plan is to isolate the houses briefly, then try to unscrew the valve's headgear, then replace it with one taken from a brand new stopvalve, leaving the old body (complete with lead pipework) undisturbed - unless any of you have better ideas of course.

As a rough guide to the size of the old valve, the flats on the headgear take a 7/8" AF spanner. Do you reckon parts from a modern 22mm one would fit? Or do plumber's merchants still stock imperial-sized ones?

My only other idea is to remove the headgear and try to refurbish it (i.e. free the spindle, lubricate it, fit new washer and gland packing, then fit the handle back on with Araldite or a cotter pin bodge). But this could take a while, so would be difficult without the neighbours getting p***ed off (unless I try to do it in the middle of the night, I suppose).

Outright replacement is out of the question because of the impossible access (wedged in a corner and buried in plaster), unless the incoming pipework is replaced of course :cry:

Look forward to your replies,
Cheers,
Nick.
 
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Hi Nick! I think the various manufacturers may have used different threads in which case the chances of getting the same is a bit slim.
It may pay you to fit another stop cock a bit further along in the copper pipe.
Another idea is to remove the head for ten minutes while you can measure the thread and count the number of threads per in. Then see if you can obtain a blanking plug to replace the head for a day or so while you carry out the repairs.
I know you say it's embedded in plaster but I would also consider digging away some plaster down the side and behind it, in order to use a 'G' clamp. Then with head removed blank off using 2 pence coin with rubber disc held in place with clamp. If necessary make clamp using 2 bolts or threaded rod in conjunction with 2 plates (1 behind 1 front) to hold home made blanking plate.
It's easy when you know how!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for your reply, Mandate, lots of good info there :D

I like your blanking plug idea and may well try it.

The coin and rubber disc trick is also very clever, but access is SO bad that I coudn't manage it.

The other thought I've had is to try the heads off old bath & basin taps as a temporary measure - I've got a few ancient ones in my garage :)

I'll let you know how it goes - assuming I can get the thing apart in the first place...

Nick.
 
:idea: I've also got a tap reseating kit with half a dozen different-sized adaptors, which I suppose I could use to gauge the size of the blanking plug required
 
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You'll get it apart quite easy. I removed one from my daughters house and dismantled it only this week. undoing the head part and the gland nut was easy, the spindle was stuck tight but a bit of heat from the blowlamp soon cured that.
If you need to replace the gland packing you might like to know I've seen the ideal thing in a marine stores.( Preston Marina ) It is square in section smallest size was 3mm. If you wrap it around the spindle so you cut through square and correct in length. Make sure the joints are on opposite sides. Mind you I think you get about 8ins for about £3.
 
MANDATE said:
You'll get it apart quite easy... a bit of heat from the blowlamp soon cured that.
I hope you're right, I suspect this one hasn't been undone since it was installed in about 1936, and access is truely awful, I'll be lucky if I can use an 8" adjustable spanner on it :eek:

I think using a blowlamp in situ would be risky becuas of the kitchen cabinets only 3 inches away in 3 directions, but a hot-air paint stripper would be a bit more controllable. Do you think there's any significant risk of melting the lead pipes?

MANDATE said:
If you need to replace the gland packing you might like to know I've seen the ideal thing in a marine stores.( Preston Marina ) It is square in section smallest size was 3mm. If you wrap it around the spindle so you cut through square and correct in length. Make sure the joints are on opposite sides. Mind you I think you get about 8ins for about £3.
That sounds useful, I've always just used twisted PTFE tape before but it's a fiddle. What's it called? How many turns (roughly) did you use?

Cheers,
Nick
 
Lots of potential problems fiddling with very old stop valve. better to lave well alone and fit new valves downstream, as was suggested above.
 
chrishutt said:
Lots of potential problems fiddling with very old stop valve. better to lave well alone and fit new valves downstream, as was suggested above.
I would under normal circumstances, but the "downstream" pipe is lead for about 10 feet before changing to copper, and is buried in the wall behind kitchen units.

I think I'll try, but be very careful.

If I can't free it, then your suggestion may be the only option.

Cheers,
Nick.

PS I like your "Never assume anything" motto - it's SO true when doing DIY, especially electrical work :eek:
 
Nickthedentist said:
The coin and rubber disc trick is also very cleverNick.

Gets you out of all sorts of bother, i recently put in a new shower and needed to cap off the old mixer, so used a 15mm compression nut, a 5 pence piece and a rubber washer. ;) :p
 
nickthetoothpuller said:
the "downstream" pipe is lead for about 10 feet before changing to copper,
So fit a new valve on the copper bit. It really doesn't matter if there's 10 feet or 10 inches of pipe in between (unless you drill a hole in it, of course).
 
chrishutt said:
It really doesn't matter if there's 10 feet or 10 inches of pipe in between (unless you drill a hole in it, of course).
It's going to be a cold winter (still below freezing at midday here in Oxford), and the house will be left unattended over Christmas etc., so isolation as close to where the pipe enters the house would be a bonus, wouldn't it?

But I take your point ;)

Nick.
 
nickthedriller said:
the house will be left unattended over Christmas
A tip - leave central heating set to come on a few times a day for say half an hour while away. Timings set to cover coldest hours especially (early morning). Better still fit a frost stat to automatically switch heating on when internal temp drops below say 5C, or use room stat if it has a low enough range.
 
Hi! Nick. You won't need to use the blowlamp in situ, it will unscrew easily with the right tool. If access is difficult try a basin wrench. The blowlamp was for the spindle after you have removed the head. But even if you used it in situ on the head you would not melt the lead. There is of course the rubber tap washer and a washer to seal the head to the valve body You mentioned 22mm, but I have just had a look at a 1/2 in stopcock taken out last month. It is 7/8 ins across flats. The thread is also 7/8 ins. It appears to match a bolt with 18 threads per inch and as it is from the 1900s I would say it is of whitworth form. (not used much these days).
If your tap re-seating tool has the correct size adaptor you may be able to use that if you can block and seal the hole.( plastic bung on the inside so it can't be forced out).
I have not used the gland packing material, but looking at the gland material I removed this morning I would think about 5 rings. I know it could be used by just using a continual length and it might work ok for something as small as this, but for large glands individual rings are the norm.
The material is just called gland packing, it's 500mm long by Holt Marine, contains PTFE and silicone.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Nhs or Private.... :?: I`ll run a new supply for a new set of dentures :LOL:
 
MANDATE said:
Hi! Nick. You won't need to use the blowlamp in situ, it will unscrew easily with the right tool. If access is difficult try a basin wrench.
I wish I had your magic touch, it's going nowhere for me so far :(

I applied some PlusGas for a few minutes, gave it a couple of sharp taps with a hammer (nothing too hefty :LOL:), heated it with the hot air paint stripper (so it was too hot to touch) and then used a basin wrench with a 5" tommy bar, a bit like this one:http://altura.speedera.net/ccimg.catalogcity.com/220000/225500/225560/Products/9127299.jpg

But as I feared, it's not shifting at all :eek:

My next plan is to get a 7/8" ring spanner and give the handle a few taps with a hammer.

But has anyone else got any ideas about how to free it?

Nick
 

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