Major leak inside new window

[LeeDowner]

I had some new windows fitted a few months ago, last night one of them was letting in a lot of water when the rain was heavy. the top of the of opening on the inside is soaked and water was dripping down from it like a dripping tap, probably 1 or 2 drips per second at it's worst, we had to put a saucepan on the window sill to catch it all.

I think the water is coming through the mortar that the builder used to fill the gap between frame and brick on the outside. Looking at it from outside I can see that the mortar is damp (darker colour).

I've spoken to someone about it and he says there has to be a slope directly above the window so that when water hits it, it runs straight off and falls to the ground. In this case though there is no slope, just expanding foam covered with a thick layer of mortar.

The builder that fitted the windows is coming back tommorow morning to have a look, while speaking to him on the phone he only said it probably needs some sort of paint or waterproofing stuff on the mortar to stop water soaking into it. Does that sound right ? What should he be doing ?

 

[footprints]

Doesn’t sound right to me. OK I’m not a window installer but I have been around the building trade for a fair old time, it should either be recessed in the reveal so water drips off the brick clear of the window or more commonly these days have a sloping plastic trim to direct water away from the wall and clear of the window, a fillet of mortar will do it as long as it is well shaped to deflect rain. It should not need painting, the pointing on your brickwork isn’t painted so why should the window mortar need it?

I had a similar problem myself, new window leaked a few weeks after, guy was adamant the problem was condensation I got a ladder and showed him an inch long gap in the silicone along the seal grudgingly he filled it muttering that it wasn’t anything to do with the water ingress! Over a year on it’s dry as a bone!

Is the builder FENSA registered?

http://www.fensa.org.uk/

 

[LeeDowner]

Doesn’t sound right to me. OK I’m not a window installer but I have been around the building trade for a fair old time, it should either be recessed in the reveal so water drips off the brick clear of the window or more commonly these days have a sloping plastic trim to direct water away from the wall and clear of the window, a fillet of mortar will do it as long as it is well shaped to deflect rain. It should not need painting, the pointing on your brickwork isn’t painted so why should the window mortar need it?

I had a similar problem myself, new window leaked a few weeks after, guy was adamant the problem was condensation I got a ladder and showed him an inch long gap in the silicone along the seal grudgingly he filled it muttering that it wasn’t anything to do with the water ingress! Over a year on it’s dry as a bone!

Is the builder FENSA registered?

http://www.fensa.org.uk/[/QUOTE]

The windows are level with the wall, not recessed at all so I suppose there should be a plastic trim like you mentioned. I don't think he's FENSA registered, I haven't asked to be honest.

Do you know the name of the plastic trims ? So I can mention it to him.

 

[crank39]

The windows are level with the wall, not recessed at all

Theres your problem, 100% guarantee it

Do you know the name of the plastic trims ? So I can mention it to him.

Pvc finishing trims come in all shapes and sizes and are available from bulding plastics suppliers, your builder will know exactly what you mean but in this case they will not help one bit, the window needs removing, the plaster chopping back further to allow the window to sit further back, a general rule of thumb is to have 30/40mm overhang on the cill

 

[footprints]

I think they are just refered to as trim or sometimes cloaking, they normally just neaten the joints, but I have seen them fitted to the head of a window when it is to be fitted flush with the wall to overhang and form a drip bar.

They would need to be inserted into the wall above the window just sticking them on the outside is not likely to help much.

I had a look but the only video I could find is this one showing windows recessed in, maybe worth a look anyway to see how windows are fitted to the opening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XikWavpuBOU

Trims or cloaking are this sort of stuff.

http://www.angelplastics.co.uk/Category/445/White-Window-Trims

Hopefully some window fitters will be home soon and logging on, they may be able to help more.

Best wishes.

 

[LeeDowner]

The windows are level with the wall, not recessed at all

Theres your problem, 100% guarantee it

Do you know the name of the plastic trims ? So I can mention it to him.

Pvc finishing trims come in all shapes and sizes and are available from bulding plastics suppliers, your builder will know exactly what you mean but in this case they will not help one bit, the window needs removing, the plaster chopping back further to allow the window to sit further back, a general rule of thumb is to have 30/40mm overhang on the cill

I don't know what he'll say to being asked to basically re-do the job, there's another window fitted exactly the same way although it isn't leaking but he'd have to re-do that aswell. I'm certainly not paying him anymore to remedy this.

I don't like having jobs done that aren't right but the room is newly decorated and we just moved in last week, I'd like to avoid the mess if possible so is there an easier way to fix this ? Like one of those plastic cills chopped into the mortar above the window to deflect water away from the frame ?

The old window that he replaced was level with the wall too but it had some tiles above it which I assume do the same job as the plastic cills ? He obviously removed the tiles when the new window went in.

Effin' cowboys.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[crank39]

I've found in the 23 years i've been fitting and repairing that you should never ever have any trim poking out further than the bricks or render in your case, sliding the trim over the top of the frame may look neat but having it sticking out past the brick is just asking for trouble, as soon as the silicone shrinks or degrades the water caught by the trim will allow it to flow over the top of the frame and its in, you have this issue as it is because sand and cement does not stick to pvc and along with a bit of shrinkage will crack and allow water ingress.

Do not even think about picture framing around the frame/render to cloak the joint, in time water WILL seep past the top trim and find its way in, i appreciate your unwillingness to remove the frame but through experience its the only way

 

[LeeDowner]

I've found in the 23 years i've been fitting and repairing that you should never ever have any trim poking out further than the bricks or render in your case, sliding the trim over the top of the frame may look neat but having it sticking out past the brick is just asking for trouble, as soon as the silicone shrinks or degrades the water caught by the trim will allow it to flow over the top of the frame and its in, you have this issue as it is because sand and cement does not stick to pvc and along with a bit of shrinkage will crack and allow water ingress.

Do not even think about picture framing around the frame/render to cloak the joint, in time water WILL seep past the top trim and find its way in, i appreciate your unwillingness to remove the frame but through experience its the only way

How about using something that will bond with mortar to make the cill ? Then using mortar to shape a slope on top of it ? It's going to look a mess but I'll get the whole external wall rendered soon which will make the windows recessed and cover anything that get's done now.

I appreciate your honest advice and respect your professional opinion but I'm desperate not to have the windows re-fitted, I'm sure he wouldn't agree to doing that anyway unless I pay him more.

 

[crank39]

Any chance you could post a couple of photos, 1 of the job in general and 1 of a close up of the top part where you want to form a drip and i'm sure you'll get more opinions once we see what you/us are up against

 

[LeeDowner]

Any chance you could post a couple of photos, 1 of the job in general and 1 of a close up of the top part where you want to form a drip and i'm sure you'll get more opinions once we see what you/us are up against

Sorry, it's too late/dark for photos now, I'll get some in the morning though and post them straight away. The builder should be coming at 10am tommorow but he's only intending to look at it, I'll tell him to wait on doing the actual repairs until I find out the best way to deal with this as he clearly hasn't got a clue.

Thanks for the help.

 

[LeeDowner]

The website wouldn't let me upload here so I've put them on flickr. Here's the link.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/95819399@N02/with/8750331186/#photo_8750331186

The photo of the kitchen windows with the slopes is basically what I'm thinking to have done on the leaky bedroom window.

 

[footprints]

Words fail me!


I suppose a thick render might help but crank39 would be the one to take advice from.

Regards,
footprints

 

[LeeDowner]

The builder just came back and had a look, he found a gap in the slate tiles directly above the window where water was leaking in and down the brickwork. The inside of the wall isn't damp at all though, only the top of the window opening that joins the window frame.

He sprayed the pointing that he did around the window with something that apparently seals it, he says when its set in 1 hour, water will just bead up and run off the mortar.

So I'll see what happens, if it leaks again I'll create a ledge myself as a temporary fix until the whole wall gets rendered.

 

[crank39]

If its not been cured then chop out the sand/cement he's put in, foam the void and while its still setting ledge some tiles on top of the frame but make sure they tip forward, once the foam has set and is holding the tiles then cap off with fresh render to match the other window which still has the tiled head.

Shocking workmanship for a builder but he's closer to a builder than a window fitter thats for sure. Is he supplying the fensa/certass cert or has he left it to you to get BC to cert it? Ask him about the insurance backed guarantee as well!

 

[s60tsy]

He must have replaced thinner frames with 70 mm and can't be bothered to set back the new frame to accommodate a recess, those pics don't look good at all, yes they're upvc frames but are they any use like that?? It's either a lazy fitter/ a fitter getting crap pay/ or a clueless B-Ser