Making water based gloss work?

[Makeitgo]

Hi All

I’m trying to freshen up some paintwork here and there to prep for pre-estate agent valuation. I’m currently on the loft hatch surround and door (gloss paint). I’ve worked with oil based gloss for woodwork and emulsion in the past, but I’m beginning to think I haven’t got a handle on some of the modern products.

I’m not trying to achieve a competition standard finish and may not go by the book (primer, undercoat, topcoat) if I’m going on top of existing paint, but want an OK looking job.

I know we’re all saving the planet now and we’re all told water based gloss (versus oil based) is the way to go, so I bought some cheap stuff, (with the Trades Descriptions Act in mind). I got it from B&M Bargains and it’s called Turner & Grey Quick Dry Non-Drip Gloss - £7.00 ish. Wow, I thought, sounds just like Farrow & Ball, I’ll be quids in!!! Not really, but I thought it might be passable.

I sanded the hatch with 120 grit as the existing paintwork was a bit sparse but pretty flat and then started laying it on with a reasonable brush. I was expecting to do at least a couple of coats given the lack of prep, but was stunned as soon as I got the first dozen strokes on. There were brush stokes galore and no way to lay them off – See pic | Hatch-Sanded then 1st Coat I know it’s hot weather but still…

I carried on and painted the whole hatch door. Supposed to be 8 hours to dry, so I left it 2 days then thought I’d try to sand down lightly and attempt the next coat with the same, or an oil based paint.

When I sanded it, the swarf created was like little balls of paint rather than dust. It reminded me of when you rub excess Copydex off and get little balls of rubber forming – See pic Hatch-Result of sanding-Zoom

WTF I think. What new hell have I unleashed here? At this point wanted to do a Cher and turn back time. I was so Pi**** off I thought I'd come back to it later. The next day I thought I’d try a control experiment and just lay on a ton of this Turner & Grey on a bit of ply to see if it would settle flat. Not a cat’s chance – See pics:

- Turner&Grey -Control Test A
- Turner&Grey -Control Test - Zoom
- Turner&Grey -Control Test - Edge on to sun

I have subsequently read a bit about what a bitch water based paints can be and seen some opinions on how to use it.

Just wondering what you guys think about:

• Is a good brand of water based Quick Dry Non-Drip Gloss going to be any easier?
• Does wetting the surface you’re about to paint really help slowing down the Open time before it looks like carp? Sounds nuts to me…
• I hear the paint conditioner “Floetrol” helps reduce the effects I getting above. Does anyone use it? Do I really have to faff with another product to paint a square yard of ply?

Holy cow! How did we get here? I’d rather wait for 4 days drying time than deal with this nonsense.

Cheers

 

[Wayners]

None drip paints have thixotropic agent making it thick.

Now you have oil on your going to have to let that cure for a few weeks as takes ages to harden.

All you needed to do was sand old gloss. One coat of zinsser BIN as an adhesion primer.
One acrylic undercoat to make it white.
320 grade denib really lightly.
Damp microfibre cloth.
4mm nap mini roller and apply a coat of waterbased gloss. A gloss that's not got the thixatropbic agent in.
Trick is get it on thick and quickly with a roller. This weather before 7am as when it gets over 23c it's too hot.
25c is cut-off for painting.
If you got to use a brush do so first in tight spots then roll over and leave.
With the roller you must get a good thick coat on the waterbased gloss so it will level out.
Too thinly will cause skin to form. Won't level out. Look patchy.
You want to be painting hatch in around 1min and walking away having loaded roller 2 or 3 times.

 

[Makeitgo]

Thanks Wayners. Lots of useful info about products and methods for the future - will certainly take it on board esp the 25c cut-off temp. FYI I still haven't progressed this job since attempting to sand the first coat, so I haven't got oil on it yet. As you say, the thixotropy is a major issue. Yup lesson learned!

I got so disillusioned with this paint that I got a tin of Dulux Trade High Gloss white (solvent based) and have now painted the hatch surrond with it. Really enjoyed using it, plenty of time to dry, went on like a dream (like a proper paint). To be honest, I'll probably just do as many coats of Dulux on the hatch as is needed now, to make it look half decent and let the new owner do what they will.

Stay cool mate.

 

[endecotp]

You’ve probably seen my recent thread:

Technique for painting water-based gloss

Dear Experts, Water-based gloss seems to have improved somewhat since I last tried to use it a decade ago, but it still seems difficult to get a perfect smooth finish. I am currently using “Leyland Trade fast-drying Plus Gloss New & Improved” (from Screwfix). It looks great as it comes off the...

www.diynot.com

Looking at your pics, I would definitely recommend one coat of primer/undercoat before the gloss.

I would not sand between coats.

My conclusion was that foam roller was better than brush. But if you brush one coat and then roller over it, you get the worst of both - brush stroke marks with roller-dimples over!

Unless you particularly need gloss for some reason, prefer water-based satin paints. They work much better. As a pre-sale redecoration, that’s definitely what I’d use.

 

[Makeitgo]

You’ve probably seen my recent thread:

Technique for painting water-based gloss

Dear Experts, Water-based gloss seems to have improved somewhat since I last tried to use it a decade ago, but it still seems difficult to get a perfect smooth finish. I am currently using “Leyland Trade fast-drying Plus Gloss New & Improved” (from Screwfix). It looks great as it comes off the...

www.diynot.com

Looking at your pics, I would definitely recommend one coat of primer/undercoat before the gloss.

I would not sand between coats.

My conclusion was that foam roller was better than brush. But if you brush one coat and then roller over it, you get the worst of both - brush stroke marks with roller-dimples over!

Unless you particularly need gloss for some reason, prefer water-based satin paints. They work much better. As a pre-sale redecoration, that’s definitely what I’d use.

Read your recent thread, thanks. Yeah, still haven't got back to this but yes, an undercoat of ether is probably in order, cheers. I was only trying to use gloss to match the existing paintwork, but if I can get away with satin elsewhere I will. Not sure I ever want to go near water based with sandpaper again. Have to admit, I enjoy playing around trying to get a nice finish with auto paints (car, bikes etc) than decorating the house. I'm starting to grow more respect for decorators that know what they're doing as there are so many types of coatings involved nowadays.

Cheers guys

 

[Makeitgo]

A quick FYI for those interested. My test application of B&M Bargains | Turner & Grey Quick Dry Non-Drip Gloss (a week and a half ago) is still so soft you can leave your fingerprint in it. Sticking to the good stuff from now on.

 

[opps]

I spent many years hand painting (raw) MDF units to a pretty high standard. I used water based primer and oil based top coats whenever possible. On the few occasions when I had to use waterbased eggshell, Floetrol was invaluable. It really is a god send.

I am old skool. I hate turning up on site and trying to sand existing water based finishes, only to find the paint gumming up the paper on my sanders or ripping off the timber.

I use additives such as Terebene to speed up the curing process for oil based paints, but I am not aware of something similar for water based paints.

As a pro I don't buy cheap paint from the likes of B&M. Why save 20% on materials when labour costs are significantly more expensive?

 

[Makeitgo]

I spent many years hand painting (raw) MDF units to a pretty high standard. I used water based primer and oil based top coats whenever possible. On the few occasions when I had to use waterbased eggshell, Floetrol was invaluable. It really is a god send.

I am old skool. I hate turning up on site and trying to sand existing water based finishes, only to find the paint gumming up the paper on my sanders or ripping off the timber.

I use additives such as Terebene to speed up the curing process for oil based paints, but I am not aware of something similar for water based paints.

As a pro I don't buy cheap paint from the likes of B&M. Why save 20% on materials when labour costs are significantly more expensive?

Opps, thanks for the tip on additives and sharing your experience with sanding these water based jobs, I feel less like I’m going bonkers now. I thought that buying rubbish would probably just be a false economy but now I’ve got first hand experience of seeing why.