Megaflo and low water pressure. HELP!

[ChrisR]

It is a patent. If Chris R thinks he invented it first, he should complain to the correct authority.

What a childish line to adopt. Why suggest that I think I invented accumulators. The patent does not apply to every and all uses of accumulators. It does not claim the invention of the accumulator. It does not stop anyone using a plain accumulator anywhere, except with the rather pointless additions specified in the patent.

The advertising around the product simond promotes purports that there is a patent on a much wider use than is true. Reprehensible.
He seems to have swallowed the lie and is promoting that too. I don't believe he is that stupid, so must therefore be that dishonest. As has often been said, you can fool some of the people, some of the time.

The chap who has the patent will not let us fit one of his products to an HS Megaflo. Simple, it's his product, if we want to use it, we have to follow the rules. I can't see anything fraudulent or criminal there.

That precisely illustrates Simond's nonsense. "The product " is NOT just a plain accumulator. Anyone who reads the patent (which Simond pretends to be too disinterested to do) will see it, as it was pointed out before. There is a world of difference between the previous paragraph and what Simond actually said:

Finally, legal issues prevent a new Heatrae Sadia Megaflo from being improved by an accumulator.

...which is just plain lies. Simond is pretending not to see the difference, and fooling only his customers. Maybe he hoped nobody would notice the considerable change in what he's saying since a page ago. We aren't that stupid.
It appears blatantly obvious that Simond is intending to deceive for his own commercial gain and trying to use this site for promoting the product, in which he clearly has a considerable interest.

I assume you class yourself in the 'independent knows what he is talking about' category. Well, so do I.

Then he's silly... Clearly Simond is not independent.
He hasn't even tried to establish the patameters of the application. So he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he isn't interested, beyond the promotion of his product. The worst sort of cowboy plumber on a hobbyhorse.

If the OP wants to see an accumulator install and use our flow meter, he is more than welcome. He can then judge for himself who wears the spurs around here.

He wouldn't be able to judge a damned thing about whether it would be appropriate for his application, and Simond knows it.

There are several possible scenarios applicable to the poster's situation where an accumulator isn't a sensible answer at all. If it turns out that one would be appropriate, I hope for his sake he steers well clear of SimonD.

 

[simond]

The only item of ChrisR's repost that I can be bothered to take issue with is;

He wouldn't be able to judge a damned thing about whether it would be appropriate for his application, and Simond knows it.

He is being very patronizing to suggest that a customer could not understand the benefits of a product, by it being demonstrated to them in a working environment.

Does he think that a better service would be offered by a virtual, self appointed 'expert' called Chris, who does not offer to physically demonstrate any of his competences or recommended products.

Where are your installs, Chris?

How many water flow boosting problems can you claim to have personally worked on and solved?

You sound like a 'carpet slippers' plumber to me, with piano players hands.

I stand by what we do, and can demonstrate it here in Surrey to any customers who are blessed to have above Chris R's definition of standard intelligence.

The fact that we happen to use a WRAS approved solution with a warranty and back up seems to cause offence here. That is what customers want, not some one-off lash up that boosts more of ChrisR's ego than their water supply.

 

[ChrisR]

He wouldn't be able to judge a damned thing about whether it would be appropriate for his application, and Simond knows it. He is being very patronizing to suggest that a customer could not understand the benefits of a product, by it being demonstrated to them in a working environment.

Oh dear, more junk from simond.
He wrote that the customer could test the flow in simond's installation and that would prove the product would be a solution to the customer's situation. Absolute rubbish. Simond doesn't know what he's talking about. Just for example, he doesn't know if the customer has 8 bar or 0.8 bar, or needs to use fittings which only work with 3 bar. Doesn't stop simond - accumulators are wonderful and his is the only one you can use. The customer might well ask about water pressure. The one we cannot credit with the common sense to do so is simond. He probably does have the common sense, but not the integrity.

Does he think that a better service would be offered by a virtual, self appointed 'expert' called Chris,

A better service would be offered by someone who is Independent and an Engineer - neither of those terms apply to simond. And one who can offer eg a pumped package as one of his methods - which doesn't apply to simond, we were told last time round.
The only self-appointed expert here is simond. Though as has been demonstrated, he isn't very expert in the thing he sells.

who does not offer to physically demonstrate any of his competences or recommended products.

I don't need to. And I don't have "products" unlike simond.

Where are your installs, Chris?
How many water flow boosting problems can you claim to have personally worked on and solved?

Surrey, Hampshire, London, some in Middlesex.
Lost count.
Include gravity, mains, pumped, hybrid and yes even accumulators. These days I prefer not to do installing any more but am often asked to survey and report. Not an expert in all things (call them when required) but it usually doesn't take one - often the problem revolved around a salesman with a "one solution fits all" approach. Like the London school with 4 x 300l unvented storage all on a 1 bar main. Accumulators no thankyou, not appropriate.

You sound like a 'carpet slippers' plumber to me, with piano players hands.

I wear slippers sometimes in nice houses when surveying.
Totectors normal, hard hat as required. Safety harness would have been nice, recently.
Boxer's hands, still.

Chris R's definition of standard intelligence

Eh? Now what's he on about. Possessed by the drivel again.

we happen to use a WRAS approved solution

No you don't . WRAS do not approve it as a solution, only as a product. Simond continues to fail to appreciate the difference.

not some one-off lash up

Drivelling again.
What lash-up?
In this salesman's eyes anything other than his one product comes in for abuse, like a simple, properly sized mains supply, or "You don't need to spend any money with us, sir".

 

[simond]

Chris R

Some of this stuff you are peddling against me is a bit flakey.

Your words, lifted verbatim from your most recent post;

Simond doesn't know what he's talking about. Just for example, he doesn't know if the customer has 8 bar or 0.8 bar, or needs to use fittings which only work with 3 bar. Doesn't stop simond - accumulators are wonderful and his is the only one you can use. The customer might well ask about water pressure. The one we cannot credit with the common sense to do so is simond. He probably does have the common sense, but not the integrity.


My words, in my first post in this thread;

If your standing pressure is over 1.5bar (the flow rate is immaterial) an accumulator can give you what you want.


Some people will believe the loudest voices in this forum.

PS: WRAS do not approve it as a solution, only as a product. Simond continues to fail to appreciate the difference.

If WRAS would not approve it as a solution to a problem, could you provide me with evidence of this statement? Or are you splitting hairs to make a non point?

Are you suggesting my company should offer non WRAS approved accumulators? Are your accumulator alternatives WRAS approved?

 

[Sider]

Chris R.


I have given up with the prospect of simond throwing any light on this so I have taken the liberty of contacting the managing director GAH by e-mail. He passed the e-mail on to one of his sales directors and has contacted me today.
He wants to talk to me personally and is concerned about what I said in the e-mail.

I have phoned him on his mobile and the voicemail is not on at the moment so no luck there.

One of the points on GAH,s website (which I didnt mention in the E-Mail incidentally) is that this accumulator features a "patented controlled action diaphragm with special diffuser to prevent stratification".
I hope to find out what exactly this is and do the RCM accumulators have this fitted also as they look identical to the one GAH is using.
I dont think patent GB2349908 which was given as a link in the other post mentions this feature but I have not had time to read it thouroughly so it may have this information in there.

GAH,s website mentions patent NO 9905894.3 (which I havent had time to search for)and states this protection applies to the use of any accumulator with any unvented cylinder.

 

[ChrisR]

My words, in my first post in this thread;

If your standing pressure is over 1.5bar (the flow rate is immaterial) an accumulator can give you what you want.

Yes I know those were your words. Stupid words. If the user needs 3 bar for the fittings he wants to use, which if you'd read my words you would have seen... your accumulator will be useless. Surely even you can even work that out.

WRAS do not approve it as a solution, only as a product. Simond continues to fail to appreciate the difference.

If WRAS would not approve it as a solution to a problem, could you provide me with evidence of this statement? Or are you splitting hairs to make a non point?

YOU raised WRAS, not I, sunshine . Presumably in a vain attempt to order to add credibility to your product. All you've done is highlight a lack of knowledge/common sense.
WRAS concerns are about water usage, wastage, contamination etc, not about whether a particular PRODUCT will necessarly be any good for a particular APPLICATION.
If you were a Water Industry Approved Contractor like me you'd know that. Suggest you get yourself some education. Start with learning to read, without the rose tinted specs.

I've really wasted enough time trying to educate this fool.

 

[simond]

You haven't tried to educate me. This isn't about altruism. You just want to be seen to be right on this forum. You haven't answered whether you used WRAS approved accumulator products or non WRAS.

Sider, you have already admitted elsewhere that you are not a plumber, and are just a DIYer who had some pipe fitting experience 8 yrs back. Just the sort of person who Chris R's blustering self opinionated ramblings are designed to impress.

I trust you are going to tell Darren at GAH that you are just wasting his time as you are never going to buy one, and are mainly interested in trying to expose an (alleged) weakness in a patent. Would you like me to tell him?

 

[ChrisR]

You haven't answered whether you used WRAS approved accumulator products or non WRAS.

Would that be, just possibly, in your wildest imaginings, because you haven't asked?
If you can't follow a line of thought or question or logic, there's no wonder you were taken in, so.

I have no axe to grind here, only you do.
Every now and again though we do expose the salesmen who visit this forum as incompetent conmen, where the cap fits, as with you.

 

[simond]

If it is this you are making a big deal about, we belong to a similar scheme ourselves and it is a requirement of building regulations.


The Water Industry Approved plumber Scheme (WIAPS)

WIAPS is funded by most of the Water Suppliers to administer an approved plumbers scheme for them. In order to become a WIAPS member, a plumber has to show he has been suitably trained as a plumber, that he has adequate knowledge of the Regulations by passing an assessment and that he has sufficient public liability insurance cover.

There is no membership fee for a plumber who wants to join WIAPS but there is a charge for taking the assessment of regulations knowledge through WIAPS.

I do take exception to being called a conman, I have never conned anyone, it is an offensive and unsubstantiated allegation. We work for churches and charities and if we lose business as a result you will have to back up your lies with some hard facts.


Meanwhile, I would be interested to know which accumulators you claim to have fitted for water supply use. I hope they were approved for use on water supply by WRAS. Eg: materials used being incapable of corrupting the water supply.

 

[Sider]

Well Ive just had the pleasure of chatting to one of GAH,s sales directors and he was very helpful I might add and a true gentleman.
(not like some)

The controlled action diaphragm is patented in America and nothing to do with GAH or Steve Elsey.
Steve Elsey does have the patent rights to this water system and so far he has not had to take issue with anyone in a court of law.
GAH,s rep was also suprised that he obtained a patent for a water system that any good plumber could install.
A point I also made and he agreed with me is in situations where accumulators are already fitted to a premises and then an unvented cylinder is installed. The plumber may T of a pipe and feed the unvented cylinder not even knowing if an accumulator is fitted.



GAH have challeneged a few installers where a large number of accumulators have being installed (but no court action taken)
but plumbers doing single systems are not restricted in any way.
The 1977 Patent act covers this patent and can be downloaded.
It covers about 60 pages of legal speak and I think a barrister would have difficulty deciphering the information contained never mind a layman.

 

[Sider]

GAH,s rep also explained to me that they always look at options when
a mains flowrate is low and do give the advice that renewing the mains pipe may be a better option.

 

[simond]

So?.

Where have I not told the truth, then?

 

[Sider]

simond wrote

Where have I not told the truth, then?

I shall start with this one below from the other thread if thats OK.

At 1.5b standing pressure an accumulator will work just fine on an unvented system

If the mains static pressure is 1.5 bar and the pre-charge inside the accumulator is 1.5 bar then how does the accumulator become charged with energy so that it may be released when a tap is opened and improve flowrate ????

If we had a pump set connected to an accumulator with an inside charge of 1.5 bar and the pressure switch operating the pump is set at 1.5 bar then it would be a pointless exercise fitting the accumulator in the first place.
Go easy on me simond as I am only a diyer, remember.

 

[simond]

There is nothing wrong with being a DIYer, I am a DIYer in electrics, car mechanics, cooking etc. But in one's chosen profession it rankles when your competence is called into question.

The previous exhaustive (exhausting?) thread does not make sense because a significant amount of retrospective editing was carried out by some contributors, when they realised some of their statements were incorrect.