Megaflo and low water pressure. HELP!

[Sider]

simond wrote

I stand by the accumulator invention, I only wish I was the one who really had thought of it first and I was receiving the licence payments. Steve Elsey deserves to be a very rich man, I take my hat off to him.
__________________

Do you have any idea who invented the accumulator ?.
I have neighbours who have them installed to boost supplies. One guy (a long distant lorry driver) purchased his in Germany and fitted it himself. A grundfos model , and for about half the cost of UK suppliers.

What is special about the accumulator that Steve Elsey has "invented" .
If the patents are protecting this as you suggest then you should be able to explain the workings in laymans terms.

 

[simond]

The patent information you gave is rubbish and you know it. The guys on that thread tore it to pieces.

The guys on the thread did not tear it to pieces, the proof of their impotence continues to reside inside the patent office.

Accumulators existed for decades before Mr Elsey filed his patent. They were used on boats, in hydraulics, on bore hole pumps etc etc. If you met him, he would readily acknowledge this.

Sadly, there is a lot of ignorance around. GAH have two trailer mounted display units travelling around the country to plumbers merchants containing an accumulator, a bath with 8 sets of taps and showers, and a length of domestic hose pipe. They have to do this because there are so many 'heating specialists' out there who cannot grasp basic physics.

Even when it is demonstrated (and we ourselves had one of these wagons at a County Fair last year) sadly there are still professional plumbers telling us it is a fraud and 'where are the pumps'?

If colleagues use a Grundfos cylinder or cobble together a load of expansion vessels, good luck to them. The fact remains that it is an excellent solution, and there is nothing you luddites can say to make me back down.

At least Sider can admit they work; how much £ exactly was that Grundfos accumulator then? Do you think it's about time you started giving out some figures, Sider?

 

[Sider]

The patent information you gave is rubbish and you know it. The guys on that thread tore it to pieces.

simond wrote

The guys on the thread did not tear it to pieces, the proof of their impotence continues to reside inside the patent office.

That dont mean jack shi@t and you know it.

Accumulators existed for decades before Mr Elsey filed his patent. They were used on boats, in hydraulics, on bore hole pumps etc etc. If you met him, he would readily acknowledge this.

So I ask again. Post the information relating to the accumulator which you claim the patent protects.

Sadly, there is a lot of ignorance around. GAH have two trailer mounted display units travelling around the country to plumbers merchants containing an accumulator, a bath with 8 sets of taps and showers, and a length of domestic hose pipe. They have to do this because there are so many 'heating specialists' out there who cannot grasp basic physics.

You dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand what a rubber diaphram inside a vessel can acheive.

Even when it is demonstrated (and we ourselves had one of these wagons at a County Fair last year) sadly there are still professional plumbers telling us it is a fraud and 'where are the pumps'?

I dont believe that.

If colleagues use a Grundfos cylinder or cobble together a load of expansion vessels, good luck to them. The fact remains that it is an excellent solution, and there is nothing you luddites can say to make me back down.

I have seen many accumulators in premises. The last one was a Grundfos system fed by 200 meter bore well professionaly installed by Grundfos approved engineers.
Not cobbled together as you suggest.

No one is asking you to back down. Just post the information on Mr Elseys patent and you can then gain at least some credibility on this forum.

At least Sider can admit they work;

I dont think anyone has ever said otherwise.

how much £ exactly was that Grundfos accumulator then?

£100. In the UK it would have cost around £300.


Do you think it's about time you started giving out some figures, Sider?
I dont usually do figures on forums but the ones above are an exception.
__________________
Simon

 

[simond]

Thanks, what size was it? I can then check with Grundfos UK.

Regarding the patent, I am unwilling to defend it in this forum. Accumulators represent a very small part of our heating business and I have no more authority to pick over their intellectual property in public than I have over patents filed by Bosch, Viessmann, Grant, Vaillant, Archie Kidd etc in other products that we fit. These other fine companies also dictate how their products are used, but I don't see you taking them on.

However, I assume you are equipped to download the full patent information yourself, details of which are listed in the thread you hold so much store in. If the patent office allows, you could republish it here.

You can then all disect it, but as far as I am concerned, you won't prove a thing until you get it revoked.

And I bet an accumulator you don't One of the 'expensive' ones.

PS: If the Grundfos costs £300 in the UK your arguments about cost don't look very sound. Have you actually researched the GAH accumulator pricing, or are you talking condense?

 

[Sider]

Simond wrote

Thanks, what size was it? I can then check with Grundfos UK.

Sorry I dont have the figures for that but it looked quite big.

Regarding the patent, I am unwilling to defend it in this forum.

Their aint nothing to defend m8.

Accumulators represent a very small part of our heating business

That I can believe .

and I have no more authority to pick over their intellectual property in public than I have over patents filed by Bosch, Viessmann, Grant, Vaillant, Archie Kidd etc in other products that we fit. These other fine companies also dictate how their products are used, but I don't see you taking them on.

Any product can be modified and an individual can then manufacture that modified product. The patent then dont mean jack shi@t.
However accumulators are freely available on the mass market and most do basically what they say on the tin.
I prefer the Grundfos system personally as I have seen what it can and cannot acheive.

However, I assume you are equipped to download the full patent information yourself, details of which are listed in the thread you hold so much store in.

That I have.

If the patent office allows, you could republish it here.

Why would I be restricted from copying and pasting something which is freely available.

You can then all disect it, but as far as I am concerned, you won't prove a thing until you get it revoked.

Get what revoked ?

And I bet an accumulator you don't One of the 'expensive' ones.

Youve lost me here.

PS: If the Grundfos costs £300 in the UK your arguments about cost don't look very sound.

This particular one cost £100. The person who purchased the accumulator and necessary components installed it himself.
Why would he need rip of merchants like yourselves to install such a system.

Have you actually researched the GAH accumulator pricing, or are you talking condense?
__________________
Simon

No, and I dont intend to after reading the rubbish that you have posted on this forum.

 

[Sider]

This load of nonsense is written on the GAH website.

Dualstream is protected by Patent No. 9905894.3 this protection applies to the use of any accumulator with any unvented cylinder and the application of its use subject to permission being obtained form GAH (HEATING PRODUCTS) LIMITED WRAS Certificate No. 0109003.

How can you take this nonsense seriously simond.
That lorry driver I mentioned has his accumulator connected up to his unvented cylinder. Whats GAH , Mr Elsey or the patent office going to do.
Sue him.?

 

[Agile]

This is not the kind of discussion I normally join. However I think a few comments on the technical details might help.

Firstly he said that he wants a 300 li cylinder then says FOUR showers! That is not suitable. Lets consider FOUR showers at 15 li/min for 10 minutes. Many people like 15-20 minute showers anyway.

Just 10 min showers need 600 litres storage even if the washing machine, dishwasher and kitchen tap are not being used.

An accumulator can only work well for about 50% of their capacity and even then the pressure falls off significantly.

So we are left specifying a 600 litre cylinder and a 1200 litre accumulator!

I think a 800 litre loft cistern and a 600 litre open cylinder with shower pumps are the economic solution.

Even so he talks of a "large family" ! Even the massive arrangement I have outlined will give FOUR showers and will need two hours to reheat the water unless his boiler is commercially sized.

Tony

 

[simond]

How can you take this nonsense seriously simond.
That lorry driver I mentioned has his accumulator connected up to his unvented cylinder. Whats GAH , Mr Elsey or the patent office going to do.
Sue him.?

Why should I be at all bothered what your lorry driving mate does? It is not my patent, for the nth time.

Why would I be restricted from copying and pasting something which is freely available.

Do you have copyright in Ireland?

I prefer the Grundfos system personally as I have seen what it can and cannot acheive.

So you had to see an accumulator first before you believed it worked? Now we are getting somewhere closer to the truth?

Have you actually researched the GAH accumulator pricing, or are you talking condense?
__________________
Simon

No, and I dont intend to after reading the rubbish that you have posted on this forum.

Your argument about rip offs doesn't look like its going very far either. It is always best to research your claims before writing it on a forum, someone might ask you to corroborate them.

 

[doitall]

Dualstream is protected by Patent No. 9905894.3 this protection applies to the use of any accumulator with any unvented cylinder and the application of its use subject to permission being obtained form GAH (HEATING PRODUCTS) LIMITED WRAS Certificate No. 0109003.

Would it be correct in assuming the patent only applies to unvented cylinders and there use for any other purpose is ok

Except Megaflow that is.

 

[simond]

My understanding is that where we have an application outside the normal field of use we should inform the licensee, GAH Ltd.

So far no reasonable request has been refused, we use these on combis regularly, for instance, in situations where the incoming mains flow rate would otherwise preclude their fitment.

If you are asking whether one could use a vanilla expansion vessel for other water augmentation purposes without contravening the patent, I'm afraid I have no idea.

We are pleased to have a workable 'off the shelf' for a low flow rate solution to offer our customers. There's nothing stopping other installers from using the technology, other than this forum perhaps

 

[Sider]

Simond wrote.

Why should I be at all bothered what your lorry driving mate does?

The point I was making is that accumulators are fitted to unvented systems without any permission from MrElsey ,GAH or certain patent rights.

Do you have copyright in Ireland?

Are you saying I need copyright just to copy information from the patent website and paste it on here for people to read.?

So you had to see an accumulator first before you believed it worked?

I saw an accumulator some 25 years ago and it was explained to me that a rubber baloon was inside and this pressurised the water.
Not the most technical of explanations but was enough for me to absorb at the time.

Now we are getting somewhere closer to the truth?

What truth would that be then ?

Your argument about rip offs doesn't look like its going very far either. It is always best to research your claims before writing it on a forum, someone might ask you to corroborate them.

GAH,s system looks like a rip off to me. Why would anyone want to hoodwink their customers into thinking that they are the only ones who can install this system.
If you were more forthcoming and transparent then I might believe you.

 

[simond]

OK, don't believe me.

If I was any more forthcoming you'd have had my pants down.

 

[Sider]

Simond wrote.

There's nothing stopping other installers from using the technology,

Thats right, their is nothing stopping other installers from installing accumulators to boost pressure on unvented systems or otherwise.

other than this forum perhaps

Just how would this forum stop installers from using accumulator technology.

 

[Sider]

Agile wrote

This is not the kind of discussion I normally join.

Hey,relax.
This is the best entertainment Ive had in a long time.
Its sad I know.

 

[Sider]

Well I think the OP deserves some attention after all that malarky. So here goes.

geez wrote

We are a large family, house has 5 bedrooms and 2 power showers increasing to 4 power showers next year.

Whats the current set up . (ie cylinders or combi boilers)
In other words what supplies your two power showers at the moment. ?
Have you measured your current flowrate and are you happy with the performance of delivery ??.