Get your building inspector around, tell him you have concerns over the structural integrety of the joists due to excessive drilling.
My builder's plumber - should I be concerned about this?
- Thread starter larrylamb11
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OP, take photos of the joists NOW. And send an attached copy to the BCO in charge of your job.
Take photos of everything else you are not happy with too. If you had photos of the screeded pipes, then at least you'd have evidence that any future problems was was caused by the installation (tho' that would only help if the company was still in business.)
However, it may be that the screeded pipes will be perfectly ok. I wouldn't expect much heat transfer unless the CH pipes were running for a good while and the neighbouring pipes 'stationary' for a good while also. Once flowing, any luke-warmness should soon pass.
Are the pipes completely screeded over directly on top of the lagging, or are they in boxed ducts under the screed so's they share the same 'air space'? If the former, then they'll be better insulated from each other, so I wouldn't expect heat-transfer problems.
Take photos of everything else you are not happy with too. If you had photos of the screeded pipes, then at least you'd have evidence that any future problems was was caused by the installation (tho' that would only help if the company was still in business.)
However, it may be that the screeded pipes will be perfectly ok. I wouldn't expect much heat transfer unless the CH pipes were running for a good while and the neighbouring pipes 'stationary' for a good while also. Once flowing, any luke-warmness should soon pass.
Are the pipes completely screeded over directly on top of the lagging, or are they in boxed ducts under the screed so's they share the same 'air space'? If the former, then they'll be better insulated from each other, so I wouldn't expect heat-transfer problems.
Thanks for the replies... I have been taking photos sporadically for my own interest anyway, so I will see if there are any there that show any problem areas.
I actually rang the BCO for advice on what to do about pipes and stuff and it sounds like the plumber has laid them in accordance with standard practice i.e. wrapped in felt lagging to protect from screed. He wasn't concerned about their proximity and was happy that the hot water pipes were sufficiently well lagged not to cause any issues anyway. He advised that there aren't any Building Regs relating to running pipes in screed specifically.... so no requirement for them to be removable etc.
I am going to have a look at my photos and see how much they show as the joists are now covered over.....
I actually rang the BCO for advice on what to do about pipes and stuff and it sounds like the plumber has laid them in accordance with standard practice i.e. wrapped in felt lagging to protect from screed. He wasn't concerned about their proximity and was happy that the hot water pipes were sufficiently well lagged not to cause any issues anyway. He advised that there aren't any Building Regs relating to running pipes in screed specifically.... so no requirement for them to be removable etc.
I am going to have a look at my photos and see how much they show as the joists are now covered over.....
There ARE regulations about running water supply pipes! They need to be inspectable or removable to inspect.
Water regulations 1999.
There are also regulations about running gas pipes as well.
Gas Safety and Use regulations!
Tony
Water regulations 1999.
There are also regulations about running gas pipes as well.
Gas Safety and Use regulations!
Tony
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Do you think you could point me to the regulations so that I can wave them at my plumber please? I was only able to find this:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1148/schedule/2/made (Number 7) which doesn't mention the requirement for pipes to be removable, just that they can't be embedded in walls or floors..... so what does one normally do? The BCO was pretty clear that there were no Building Regs covering pipes laid in screed.
They cannot be fitted so that they cannot be inspected. But putting them in a duct so they can be pulled out overcomes that.
The BCO was correct in a blinkered way. Thast if he only meant the Building Regulations!
But he is incorrect to say there were NO other regulations which applied to pipes in screed. They mostly leard just the Building Regs.
Tony
The BCO was correct in a blinkered way. Thast if he only meant the Building Regulations!
But he is incorrect to say there were NO other regulations which applied to pipes in screed. They mostly leard just the Building Regs.
Tony
Ok, a picture speaks a thousand words...... what do you think?
View media item 31448 View media item 31449 View media item 31450 View media item 31451 View media item 31452 View media item 31453In that last picture the pipes running across the photo in felt lagging are copper radiator pipes, the ones running up the photo in felt lagging are the cold supply and softened cold water pipe - the two lagged are hot water loop. Any opinions?
View media item 31448 View media item 31449 View media item 31450 View media item 31451 View media item 31452 View media item 31453In that last picture the pipes running across the photo in felt lagging are copper radiator pipes, the ones running up the photo in felt lagging are the cold supply and softened cold water pipe - the two lagged are hot water loop. Any opinions?
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All looks ok to me.
He isn't seriously intending to embed felt lagging in a floor screed, is he? Have I misunderstood this?
The felt carp isn't insulation, it should have been banned decades ago. It is sold to people who pull the wool (felt?) over the eyes of customers who don't know what insulation is. Tell the builder you're not happy with it and ask for the product information sheet giving details of the thickness and thermal conductivity and the recommended applications. It is porous and will get saturated with the screed, rendering any thermal insulation values worthless. Remind Mr. Builder that, if it is unsuitable, he funds digging it out and replacing it.
Is there edge insulation around the external perimeter of the the UFH screed? All pipes to be pressure tested prior to laying screed, and kept under pressure during screed laying?
Even in the bad old days we used to lay pipes in a duct and wrap with glass fibre insulation - not hair felt 
. Why are some pipes lagged with foam did they run out of foam lagging. judging by the door lining there is one hell of a thick screed going down
. Why are some pipes lagged with foam did they run out of foam lagging. judging by the door lining there is one hell of a thick screed going down couple of quick observations.
Is the shower tray laid directly onto 18 or 22mm chipboard
Hairfelt should not be used as ducting for plastic pipework. There is a special conduit for it!
Are those speedfit connections going to be innaccessible? What happens when one of them blows - mind ripping out plasterboard to find the leaky joint? Good luck! Why wasnt soldered copper specified? - did you go with the cheapest quote?
I know its easy to sit and criticise someone elses work, but i think those are genuine points of concern if it was my house.
Is the shower tray laid directly onto 18 or 22mm chipboard
Hairfelt should not be used as ducting for plastic pipework. There is a special conduit for it!
Are those speedfit connections going to be innaccessible? What happens when one of them blows - mind ripping out plasterboard to find the leaky joint? Good luck! Why wasnt soldered copper specified? - did you go with the cheapest quote?
I know its easy to sit and criticise someone elses work, but i think those are genuine points of concern if it was my house.
Yes. The plastic cold pipes were wrapped in felt lagging and embedded in the screed. The copper pipes supplying radiator were sleeved in felt lagging, dropped onto the oversight then celotex over the top then screeded over, so they poke through the screed in their felt lagging
Yes, I insisted it was insulated (they used 25mm Celotex). Yes, system was put up to pressure and kept pressurised during screeding.
The hot water pipes have been lagged with foam, all the others lagged with felt lagging.
There is another 50mm Celotex to go down there, which covered over the pipes (in that area they are sandwiched between Celotex), then 75mm screed on top.
Yes directly onto the floor boards.
That is what the plastic potable water pipes have been laid in and the copper CH pipes under the floor.
Yes, there are dozens in the floor/ceiling void. They have all been pressure tested and kept at pressure for days to check for leaks before being covered over, but yes they are innaccessible.
Are they prone tp blowing? Is it not the same as having soldered copper joints covered over? Yes, if one blows it will be an almighty mess....
The specification was left to the plumber / building contractor. The architect spec'd the requirements (bathrooms etc.). I don't have a full drill-down of every detail of spec.
No
pipes sandwiched in celotex not in contact with wet screed then - No problem - joints in plastic pipes inaccesible but tested - No problem there then . Looks like I agree with PVM then I`ve seen a damned site worse in 30 years
not in contact with wet screed then - No problem - joints in plastic pipes inaccesible but tested - No problem there then . Looks like I agree with PVM then I`ve seen a damned site worse in 30 years pipes sandwiched in celotex
Still, the felt is not insulation. Compare with sectional pipe insulation and see the difference; cost is the obvious one. You get what you pay for; or, in this case, the contractor gets what he has paid for (not a lot) and the customer does not get what HE has paid for.
I doubt that you will get any details of the thermal conductivity or thickness, because it is not used where there is a specification requirement for a minimum thermal performance of the insulation. I'm certain you'd find a performance requirement in a relevant BS or some such statutory document (CHESS is it? Forget).
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