new house, new junction box

[sky_bum]

Hi! First post here so please be gentle

We got a new house, refurbished it and now the missus wants hanging pendant lights in the dining area. Luckily the carpet fitting has been delayed due to technical issues so I thought it would be an easy job just replace the current ceiling light with a pendant and add 2 or 4 more on the same light switch.

However the light that I wanted to extend seems to not have a rose; instead it's just 4 wires joined together with some plastic doohickeys and sticky tape:

• all 4 red wires are joined together;
• three of the black wires are joined together and one is marked as the live;
• three of the earth cores are joined together and one is loose.

1) I want to replace this with a rose - does this seem right or is the current setup ok?
2) Am I right in assuming this is a junction box setup?
3) Again am i right in assuming all 4 earth cores should be connected?
4) If I want to take this light out and add two more light pendants on the same circuit, do I just add another parallel junction box?
5) Would 2-4 single pendant lights on the same switch be too much?

 

[securespark]

Yes, the loose earth should be reconnected. But you will need a multimeter to check it has not been (incorrectly and dangerously) re-purposed as a live conductor.

If it is connected to earth, you can use the multimeter to reference it against the live loop. If it is connected to the switch or another fitting and not back to the earth terminal, you could use the continuity setting on the MM to check this.

But you need to ensure it is an earth wire before you reconnect it.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

all 4 red wires are joined together;

This will be your live loop and is correct, on a ceiling rose these cables are terminated to the middle compartment this would be normal marked up as loop/live loop

three of the black wires are joined together and one is marked as the live;

The three blacks together are you neutral loop, thus are terminated at the neutral side of the ceiling rose.
The single black marked as switch live, will be terminated to the live side of the ceiling rose.

three of the earth cores are joined together and one is loose.

As previous this must be confirmed as an earth/CPC, this may take some investigative work using a meter to test for continuity, as it maybe connected back to the fuse board or it maybe supplying a path to earth to accessories downstream of this fitting, so it is important that this is confirmed and dealt with accordingly, as you may have lost earth continuity from this point to downstream items

1) I want to replace this with a rose - does this seem right or is the current setup ok?

It has one more set of cables than standard, but can still be configured in a ceiling rose, you will have to double up with two of the reds in the a live loop terminal and two of the blacks in the neutral.

2) Am I right in assuming this is a junction box setup?

It is a junction and could be incorporated in to a 4 terminal junction box, but that is another issue if this is being considers as you would need to use maintenance free methods, if the junction was not accessible for repair, maintenance and inspection and testing.

3) Again am i right in assuming all 4 earth cores should be connected?

If they are all earth yes, this is very important to keep continuity throughout the installation of this circuit.

4) If I want to take this light out and add two more light pendants on the same circuit, do I just add another parallel junction box?

On the same circuit or the same switch? Junction boxes are best avoided, ideally all terminals/connection are best placed in an accessible accessory.

5) Would 2-4 single pendant lights on the same switch be too much?

Generally not.

 

[sky_bum]

Thanks to both of you for the earth tip and especially thank you Boyo for your detailed answer.

I assumed that a junction box would be the better option but I take it that the doohickeys are the way to do it properly? The floor board above is cut out but they would have a carpet over very soon.

Just out of curiosity, I also checked the other light fixture and the wires and the connectors are pushed back beyond the plasterboard and the metal support bar (I will upload a pic this evening if this is a bit vague). I take it during a normal investigation this would be pulled down like this light fixture is and then pushed back up?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It has one more set of cables than standard, but can still be configured in a ceiling rose, you will have to double up with two of the reds in the a live loop terminal

Not if the extra cable is supplying a 2nd light switched by the same switch.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I assumed that a junction box would be the better option but I take it that the doohickeys are the way to do it properly?

No - the best way is to have no "junction boxes" of any sort. But that's not always realistic, which is why they are made. If you cannot do without something like that then choc-block is a poor way to do it.

The floor board above is cut out but they would have a carpet over very soon.

That would probably count as inaccessible, so the JB should be a maintenance free one, such as the Ashley J803 or J804.

Just out of curiosity, I also checked the other light fixture and the wires and the connectors are pushed back beyond the plasterboard and the metal support bar (I will upload a pic this evening if this is a bit vague). I take it during a normal investigation this would be pulled down like this light fixture is and then pushed back up?

Choc-blocks like that should be in an enclosure (inside a light would do), not just shoved into a ceiling void, whether covered with tape or not.

 

[sky_bum]

4) If I want to take this light out and add two more light pendants on the same circuit, do I just add another parallel junction box?

On the same circuit or the same switch? Junction boxes are best avoided, ideally all terminals/connection are best placed in an accessible accessory.

Same switch - there is only one switch controlling one light fixture. So the JB were a bad idea an I can prolly do without.

If I plan to add two more lights controlled from the same switch, is there some good reading on how best to wire it with choc blocks (do I just feed off all the extra lights into the same choc block with the existing 4 wires or do I have to separate them out somehow)? All I found were some instructions from B&Q which only seem to refer to junction boxes (hence my original intention to add the junction boxes).

It has one more set of cables than standard, but can still be configured in a ceiling rose, you will have to double up with two of the reds in the a live loop terminal

Not if the extra cable is supplying a 2nd light switched by the same switch.

Just one light is controlled by the switch.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

It has one more set of cables than standard, but can still be configured in a ceiling rose, you will have to double up with two of the reds in the a live loop terminal

Not if the extra cable is supplying a 2nd light switched by the same switch.

Well the pictures and the explanation offered by the OP, seemed not to suggest that, and that has now been confirmed.

 

[sky_bum]

I tested the earth cable using the conductivity setting on a mm and it seems to be connected to the neutral wire. Any idea what this could be?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I tested the earth cable using the conductivity setting on a mm and it seems to be connected to the neutral wire. Any idea what this could be?

N is earthed.

//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:earthing_supply_types_and_bonding:earthing_arrangements

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.2.1.htm

 

[sky_bum]

So it's TN-C-S? In any case, this wire would not be live then and should definitely be connected with the rest of the earth. Right?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Which wire?

 

[sky_bum]

It's the wire with the earth casing - in the initial setup it was hanging loose and it was recommended here to check that it is earth indeed and not used in some other way.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's the wire with the earth casing

I assume you meant it's #4.

You should check that it is an earth by measuring the resistance back to the main earth terminal.

 

[sky_bum]

You are right and it is earth. Thanks!

A