New shower will only work with shower head on floor

[dan2016]

Hi all

I had my ensuite re-done and finished two weeks ago. I had a new shower installed along with a Boss pump. (Will provide further details on pump if necessary).

The pump sits in the loft just above the airing cupboard which is adjacent to the shower cubicle.

For the first 10 days the shower worked perfectly and straight away when turned on. However on Friday it took about 3-4 seconds before the water would come out, a bit longer on Saturday (about 20-30 seconds) and then yesterday (Sunday) it wouldnt work at all. I did a bit of Googling and put the shower head on the floor and it worked. I put the shower head back in place and was fine. Switched off and back on again, and nothing until I put it back on the floor.

I have checked the troubleshooting section which suggested turning pump off, taking shower head off and letting the shower hose hang down to the floor and turn on. I left it running for a few minutes and put it all back together and switched pump on and it made no difference.

I contacted the plumber who installed who said that shower pumps are temperamental and he would just try the things I have already tried. He also said to persevere with what we were doing and it may equalise itself out?!

I just wondered if anyone has any other suggestions as it was working fine a few days ago.

Thanks

 

[picasso]

Up and over pipework tends to trap air , has your installer put airvents at the highest points ?

 

[dan2016]

That I dont know. I will ask. Thanks

 

[Dan Robinson]

Not enough head. Should have used a negative head pump or a universal one.

 

[dan2016]

Not enough head. Should have used a negative head pump or a universal one.

Hi, this is the one installed. Not sure how to tell if it has a negative head or universal. I see the motor says universal, not sure if that is the same thing?

http://s17.postimg.org/rupcvh9fj/IMG_9144.jpg

 

[stardanny]

How is the shower hot water pipe connected to cylinder?

Daniel.

 

[dan2016]

Hi

I think the set up is like this as the pump is in the loft on the loft floor underneath the cold water tank and above the airing cupboard which contains the hot water cylinder. I am going to check airing cupboard when I get home to check there is the anit-gravity loop into the HWC.

It was working fine for first two weeks.

 

[Dan Robinson]

It is a positive head pump. Such clearly states it needs 2m head.... Such, surprise surprise is where it starts to work when you lower the shower head.

Tell your installer to RTFM.

 

[dan2016]

Just spoke with the helpline for the pump and they said something along the lines of.....


The shower valves are too restrictive as there isn't enough head between shower outlet and pump. He said at first the check valves would be loose so would operate fine after install but after a few weeks they would start to be embedded and face this problem.

He said there are 3 options -

1. Remove the check valves but said this could lead to the pump pulsating after use so non-return valves would need to be fitted (something like that). He said I would need to check with shower manufacturer about whether removing check valves invalidates warranty.

2. Fit a different shower with a 0.1 or 0.2 bar minimum because if my shower has a minimum start of more than 0.2 bar then its too much for that pump. They said to check online or in paperwork for shower what its minimum bar starting is. I need to get that info off installer.

3. Change the pump to a negative head or universal head as that would work on a pressure drop system rather than gravity fed.

So have gone back to installer with this info to see what they will do.

Can you guys confirm if those options make sense and if not, correct me where I am wrong/mis-understood ? Thanks

 

[Dan Robinson]

Pretty much confirms what I wrote in the post above.

Which should be common sense to a plumber.

 

[dan2016]

It wouldnt work at all this morning, whether the shower head was on the floor or not.

The installer has said he will ring the pump manufacturer today and discuss the option of removing the check valves and any other options, as the manufacturer said to me yesterday removing the check valves would sort the issue.

1. What is the downside of removing the check valves? If there is a downside, can anything be done to remedy that downside?
   
2. What is the approx price difference between a positive head pump and a negative/universal head pump?

Finally, I also have another issue with this shower where the water doesnt drain quick enough from the shower tray, so I basically have to give it one/two pumps with a plunger and then it swirls away fine for the rest of the shower. The plumber says enough of a drop was fitted and should be fine and that there must be a blockage further down the pipe. I have put a load of chemicals down the plughole and been plunging it everyday for the past 2 weeks but not shifted the blockage yet. I did have a similar issue with the previous shower, but as the tray was a bit deeper and I didnt have a pump and the water flow wasnt as good the problem wasnt much of an issue. Could it be a blockage further down and is there anything else I can try other than continuous plunging and chemicals? Will over time of plunging eventually shift the blockage?

Thanks

 

[steve32]

This is the only pump I will supply and fit never had a problem you get what you pay for
A pump should not be fitted in the loft it states that in the instructions for the pump that has been fitted


http://www.showerdoc.com/stuart-turner-monsoon-universal-2-0-bar-twin-shower-pump

 

[Dan Robinson]

^^^^this.

 

[Madrab]

Check valves and non return valves are the same thing. Surprised that they mentioned removing the check valves and then in the same sentence mention that if there aren't non return valves the pump will pulse.

As Dan mentions, a universal pump is the correct solution. That being said, any positive pump, where you can access the flow switch connections, can be converted into a negative head pump by adding a switch to bypass them. It is an extra step - shower on and then press a button and it is a work around and not to everyones taste but it is a money saver.

1) Check valves are there to avoid backflow and then contamination into the feed pipes if there is a drop in pressure. Given it's a low pressure (LP) system that's not too much of an issue if removed, they can impeded flow in a LP system
2) Depends on pump type but typically weld another £100-£150 onto the price, look to spend around £450 for a good twin brass impeller

Good drainage is down to correct pipe sizing and run design/location. If you had this issue before then it isn't going to get any better unless the problem/restriction is found and corrected. Did you mention that to the installer?

 

[dan2016]

Hi, sorry I didnt get any email notifications that there had been a reply to this.

Having spoken to the pump manufacturer they said that this pump needs a shower with a minimum starting pressure of 0.1 or 0.2 bar max, my shower is 0.5bar. So that may be one issue. Will getting a 0.1bar shower sort it?

Secondly, I have read the install instructions for the pump and it says ideally install below the hot water outlet in the HWC but if it does go above it then it needs to be installed with the supply head from water level in cold water tank to the pump suction port within the min and max values specified. Those values are 2m-10m. As my pump is installed in the loft there is max 1m between CWT and pump. I would imagine if the pump had been installed on the shelf in airing cupboard there would be at least 2m between pump and CWT.

Am I correct in how I am viewing this? If so, then I think I will ask the installer to come back and read the install instructions properly and move it to the shelf in the airing cupboard. It has to go above as there is no room on the floor in the cupboard for it.

With regards the blockage/slow draining water from shower tray, I stupidly didnt mention this to the installer about having an existing issue as our ensuite was a DIY-job by the previous owners and (maybe wrongly) assumed they had just installed the shower poorly.

Thanks