Non-earthed downlights, not class 2. In the bin?

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by McKenna32, 21 Jul 2019.

  1. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    Morning all

    Just came to extend the lighting in my kitchen and discovered that the downlights are a)not earthed and b) not class 2. They have a steel body with thin powdercoat.

    I have old EIC for the kitchen and evidence points to these being installed by a pro NICEIC contractor in 2011 – so unless they were replaced DIY since these should be compliant & safe. However I’ve got nothing, they look unprotected.

    Opinions welcome on this

    Options I guess are:
    1. They are compliant (doubt it, but happy to be corrected)
    2. They need to go in the bin and I get new ones in (burning through the budget, so looking for a reason not to!)
    3. I DIY an earth connection at each lamp
    3) seems dodgy. There *is* a level of continuity through from the screws on the top to the bottom bezel but if it's not been explicitly designed for it then why should i trust that will remain true over say 10 years?

    The ones on the left are old, on the right are new (purchased for the job without inspecting the existing install closely enough, clearly!)

    cheers

    Al

    thumbnail_DSC_0112.jpg thumbnail_DSC_0113.jpg
     
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  3. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    BTW just to be clear this is 240V GU10 not any sort of ELV.
     
  4. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    The unit on the left is very suspect as the brown and blue wires are going through a hole in metal without a grommet so NOT double insulated and hence this unit needs to be earthed. The unit on the right does appear to have a second layer of insulation.

    The JC94001 does not appear in the current online JCC catalogue.

    JCC Lighting
    Innovation Centre, Beeding Close, Southern Cross
    Trading Estate, Bognor Regis, West Sussex, PO22 9TS
    Company Registration Number: 03044848 | VAT Number: 918544112
    T: 01243 838999 | F: 01243 838998 | sales@jcc.co.uk | www.jcc.co.uk

    They may have had a problem with over heated insulation as 10 years ago this was posted in DIYnot

     
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  5. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    Thanks @bernardgreen. I agree with your assessment of the ones on the left being dodgier looking!

    That may be,but without the correct symbols or approvals being evident would one be rather out on a limb should the can become live in the future? Or is it just a case of best judgement, as this is of course very highly unlikely (e.g. a heatshrunk insulated crimp does not bear any symbols but is compliant).

    I could easily add a sleeve and an earth to the originally fitted lamps, and just add an earth to the new ones (albeit a bit untidy being spliced outside the connector block). A short to the bezel may not be 100% guaranteed to be reach the CPC but I'll test them up with a proper low-ohm method and see if I can convince myself they are continuous enough, luckily the bezels aren't powder coated.

    Thanks for the links
     
  6. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    So the metal is handily continuous from screw position to bezel. The bezel's a bit wobbly but worst I could manage twisting it around was 100mohm on one of them, normally less than 30mohm (at up to 3 Amps). So I've sleeved and earthed it up, confirmed continuity back to the switch. much happier. repeat another 3 times and then I'm where I thought I was 3 hours ago :). Not really any questions left but maybe the image below would be handy for someone else in the same predicament as a suggestion (yes I self-amalg'd the joint into the terminal box as there was a short legnth of L and N unsleeved conductor there).

    I'm happy it's protected now but I wouldn't bother buying JCC stuff again by the looks of this.
    thumbnail_DSC_0120.jpg
     
  7. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    The old light clearly has provision for the connection of a CPC; the same as the other two conductors.

    Why was the connector housing not attached to the bracket?
    Could the bracket not have been earthed satisfactorily?

    Who knows what any one has done to it since fitting?
    It looks like a replacement lamp holder.


    Anyway, one thing the label does say is - do not bin it.
     
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  8. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    One screw holds the terminal block together and fixes to the bracket in one swoop. The bracket doesn't have a convenient robust screw position for a CPC that I liked the look of

    Yes, and on the spectrum of horrors found in this house it barely registers.

    Nothing about ritually throwing it into a volcano though! (if only I had one, oh well they'll have to stay)

    cheers
     
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  9. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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  11. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    @EFLImpudence good find, although it appears I have something different to the links you've listed. It LOOKS like a 94001 BUT has a GU10 fitting and the double insulation sleeving around the wires. It's sold as GU10 and therefore 240V. Look at my original pic though - clearly a 12V sticker on the side - I didn't see that!!

    Could it be somebody's bunging GU10 fittings in an MR16 intended body? (but why??). They were bought from ebay as genuine JCC GU10 fittings (and the picture shows the 94002 now I'm familiar with them.) but seem to be some sort of hybrid...

    That said, it is now earthed, clearly double insulated and the 500V isolation measurements (L-N, L&N-CPC) are coming out >550Meg, so they appear to be up to the task, but what a weird scenario.
     
  12. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    I think the old (94002) one has definitely had a replacement lamp holder fitted or some alteration. There is no reason for brown and blue wires.

    (y)
     
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  13. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    I've emailed JCC with photos as I'm intrigued, will post back if I hear anything
     
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  14. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    I'm rather confused. Not only does it 'look like' a 94001, but it is labelled as such and, as you say, is also labelled "12V". What makes you think that it is anything other than a 94001?
    There is some potential confusion about terminology here. GU10 refers to the pin arrangement - which, although it usually implies 230V/240V, it doesn't have to. "MR16" merely means that it is 2" in diameter (16 eighths of an inch) and has a multifaceted reflector - nothing to do with voltage.

    Kind Regards, John
     
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  15. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    Hi @JohnW2
    The GU10 fitting, the spec sheets EFL found are clearly MR16 and I can't see any documentation of a 12V GU10 downlight in any JCC specs - not to say it doesn't actually exist of course, but I imagine they would give it a different part number if it did.

    I remembered being confused about this when first looking into it years ago. Based on never seeing any 230V MR16's or 12V GU10's I came to the conclusion GU10=230V and MR16=12V. Can you really buy (say) 12V GU10s and put them in a 230V GU10 fitting without an issue?

    I guess if this was the case in the past there would be a Darwin-esque separation of the two species into different voltages because mixing voltages and fittings together would not work or blow up half the time somebody tried to replace a lamp...
     
  16. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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  17. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    I think you'll find that all 230V incandescent/halogen GU10s are MR16. Although we see "MR16" used in relation to LEDs, it is rarely, if ever, correct - since, although the '16' may be correct (i.e. 2" diameter) LEDs rarely, if ever, will have multifaceted reflectors ('MR').
    By definition, you can put a GU10 bulb/lamp into a GU10 lampholder in any fitting - since, as I said, GU10 refers only to the pin arrangement. However, as I said, it might not be easy to find 12V GU10s (they are usually GU5.3 - with a different type, and spacing, of pins).

    Kind Regards, John
     
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