Party wall dispute with neighbor - what are my rights here

[platforminc]

Hi All.

I am doing some major works at my house, which involves a rear extension and also a garage conversion as well.

Below is a timeline of what happened.

1. When we bought the place, we spoke to the neighbour to talk about our plans.
2. They didnt have any objections.
3. Neighbor asked me if we could knock down the party wall and rebuild it. I agreed to do this at my cost, just for them to pay for the cost of redoing thier felt roof, but I agreed to pay for the wall. At the time, I didnt understand the issue and the fact that the 2 roof fall into my side, and I downplayed the issue and said I would build a wall, thinking that was the only solution, I didnt realise at the time that the neighbor would also need to raise the height of thier roof as well and make it fall to thier existing kitchen flat roof.
4. I sent the neighbor a party wall agreement, 2 agreements one for digging within 3m and the other for the party wall.
5. Neighbour signed the oen within 3m, but changed thier mind on the garage on the advise of the wife who is against it.
6. Neighbor apologised and said it was his wife, which I completely understand.
7. My architect then came up with another proposal, which is not to build a party wall, but instead use 3/4 coaches ofclass 2 bricks, and then have a timber frame wall, I also agreed this with building control, the only issue is that the existing party wall is not high enough, and the fact that the neighbors garage roof falls towards mine, which means whenever it rains, it will go towards my wall and damage it.
8. The neighbor did this drainage years ago when they had water ingress into thier house, and decided to put a funny drain between the 2 houses and make it go into mine. Now, that might be fine with the previous owners, but i am not Ok with it now and I need it removed.
9. I approached the neighbor this week to inform them that I now understand the issue properly and the only solution is to raise the party wall, and the fall done properly because if it stays as is, the water is coming towards my side. The wife was against this, even though the husband was in favour. They asked me how much my builder would charge, of which I didnt know at the time, as I had not spoken to my builder.
10. They were arguing amost each other, and I said the best thing was for them to call other roofers and get a 2nd & 3rd opinion about it, and I would also get them a cost to redo thier roof which is what they pay for, I pay for raising the height of the party wall and to do my roof obviously.
11. To my suprise 2 days after, I get a letter in the post saying based on our last conversation a dispute as arisen and they would like to appoint a surveyor.

Now, I would like to know where I stand legally on this. Its really spiteful, especially after we have been cordial before this, and just because the wife doesnt want to move the fridge/freezer and have the garage without a roof for 3/5 days, whilst the issue is resolved, they are thinking going to the surveyor is the solution.


I have since removed my garage roof this week, so its only thier roof draining into my garden, a friend of mine has asked me to tell them to sort that out first, since its encroaching on my land and is also tresspassing. I wanted to get the opinion of folks before I make a move.

Thanks in advance.

 

[^woody^]

To the chase ....

Do you have a PW agreement in place or not?

Does the PW Act actually apply?

If so, are you in dispute under the Act?

 

[platforminc]

Neighbor signed PW agreement for the digging of any ground close to hig existing foundation.
Not sure if PW applies, however my suspicions if because of that shared garage wall.

 

[cdbe]

Hi, I'm not sure I fully grasp the situation here but would have thought you (as the one who wants to change the existing arrangements for your benefit) should be looking to properly sort out the drainage off your neighbours small lower flat roof - ie replace that makeshift arrangement with something more permanent and suitable - that might cost you a few hundred of your project budget. Then raise the "party" wall a few courses to form your outer skin, with a new cavity and inner skin. If my neighbour told me I had to spend a few thousand raising their garage roof for your benefit I would behave in the same way.
Alternatively, carry on in the current direction which seems to be towards a dispute that could stop your project dead and cost you thousands in legal fees.
I would be apologising to my neighbour, saying I'd made a mistake and would sort everything properly with no cost or inconvenience to them.

 

[Notch7]

I would think your best starting point is asking what it is they are unhappy about. Is it the cost, the aggravation or is it the change of design of their roof, or something unknown.

If they are unhappy about forking out money for your benefit not theirs, you might be best to offer to pay for it, which could be less than a dispute cost. Any agreement you make wants to be in writing and they need to agree the drawings and sign them off too.

 

[platforminc]

Please read my explanation properly, I already offered to raise the party wall at my own cost, there are 2 issues here.

1. The raising of the party wall benefits the 2 of us in the long term, but in the immediate term is for my own benefit as i am the one doing works.
2. The second issue is that, now that my roof has been removed its their roof that is draining into my property, now that cannot be right. The only solution to this is point 1 which I have summarised above.

I have been reasonable, I will pay for the wall to be raised to the required height. What is unreasonable is for me to pay for covering their roof, not that I cannot afford it. I just think they are taking the ****. Look at it like this, If I sued for encroachment/trespass/nuisance that their roof is causing by draining into my garden (without my approval), would they not then be paying for raising the wall, sorting out the fall towards thier side.

Hi, I'm not sure I fully grasp the situation here but would have thought you (as the one who wants to change the existing arrangements for your benefit) should be looking to properly sort out the drainage off your neighbours small lower flat roof - ie replace that makeshift arrangement with something more permanent and suitable - that might cost you a few hundred of your project budget. Then raise the "party" wall a few courses to form your outer skin, with a new cavity and inner skin. If my neighbour told me I had to spend a few thousand raising their garage roof for your benefit I would behave in the same way.
Alternatively, carry on in the current direction which seems to be towards a dispute that could stop your project dead and cost you thousands in legal fees.
I would be apologising to my neighbour, saying I'd made a mistake and would sort everything properly with no cost or inconvenience to them.

 

[platforminc]

Because i am the one doing the work doeskin mean its only for my benefit, their roof slopes/falls towards mine and also drains water into my garage. I do not like or want this. Raising the wall benefits the 2 of us, we can have the slope/fall going to the rear and drain correctly.

They didn't say they were unhappy about payment, they asked me for the cost, of which I didn't know at the time. I asked them to give me a week to get the cost, and within 2 days they had gone to a surveyor. The issue for them was that they would be without a roof in the garage for say a week, of which my builder advised that it would be covered with tarpaulin whilst he fixes the roof.

I would think your best starting point is asking what it is they are unhappy about. Is it the cost, the aggravation or is it the change of design of their roof, or something unknown.

If they are unhappy about forking out money for your benefit not theirs, you might be best to offer to pay for it, which could be less than a dispute cost. Any agreement you make wants to be in writing and they need to agree the drawings and sign them off too.

 

[garyo]

If I sued for encroachment/trespass/nuisance that their roof is causing by draining into my garden (without my approval)

I'm not an expert but you probably need to look at Statutory Easements - i.e. their roof shedding water onto yours, and any associated overhang to do so, is probably protected by now. I'd stick with your current angle of attack and keep the legal ££££ out of it as much as possible!

 

[platforminc]

Nobody wants the legal route at all.
Its just that, the neighbours are not being reasonable at all. The cost of going to a surveyor is probably twice as much as fixing what looks like a very trivial issue.

I'm not an expert but you probably need to look at Statutory Easements - i.e. their roof shedding water onto yours, and any associated overhang to do so, is probably protected by now. I'd stick with your current angle of attack and keep the legal ££££ out of it as much as possible!

 

[Notch7]

What is unreasonable is for me to pay for covering their roof,

they already have a roof they are happy with, raising the roof is for your benefit not theirs.

The water may currently discharge onto your land, but how much cost or inconvenience is that to you?

I dont know what the root cause of their change of heart is, but money seems a likely contender.

The only way to get anywhere with it is to ask them what the problem is.

 

[Lower]

Please read my explanation properly, I already offered to raise the party wall at my own cost, there are 2 issues here.

1. The raising of the party wall benefits the 2 of us in the long term, but in the immediate term is for my own benefit as i am the one doing works.
2. The second issue is that, now that my roof has been removed its their roof that is draining into my property, now that cannot be right. The only solution to this is point 1 which I have summarised above.

I have been reasonable, I will pay for the wall to be raised to the required height. What is unreasonable is for me to pay for covering their roof, not that I cannot afford it. I just think they are taking the ****. Look at it like this, If I sued for encroachment/trespass/nuisance that their roof is causing by draining into my garden (without my approval), would they not then be paying for raising the wall, sorting out the fall towards thier side.

I can appreciate how you feel. However, the fact remains that the only reason that this has come to light is because you want to make a change.

I assume both sides were happy (as far as you were aware) with the existing arrangement prior to you wanting to commence work. Rights and wrongs aside, if you dig your heels in now you're in for a load of pain and cost.

The solution for this is for you to throw a bit time, money and charm at the problem, not use the legal route which will only cause friction, unhappiness and a delayed build.

I'd try the carrot and stick. The stick is that their roof drainage is wrong and they should put it right. The carrot is that you'll pay to have the work done for them to avoid a dispute and move things forward. On that basis, hopefully the husband will persuade the wife that she will have to put up with a bit of disproportion.

 

[^woody^]

Because i am the one doing the work doeskin mean its only for my benefit

Of course it's for your benefit. You want to alter the roof, not the neighbour, the alterations are for your benefit to help with whatever else you are doing.

There is normally an express or implied easement or right to drain roof water across a neighbour's attached roof and gutters. One neighbour can’t just block it off and expect the other to alter his roof.

If the PW Act applies to raising the party wall, then that will deal with the required roof alterations to the neighbour's roof.

 

[platforminc]

The water discharging onto my land is an inconvenience to me, remember I just bought the house and have not moved there at all, I wanted to have the works done first, so its not like this has been the case with my ownership.

I did not have the cost information so I am not sure if cost is an issue, it could well be. Just wondered why it would be especially as I have not specified the cost.

I can ask what the issue is, but i suspect they could well tell me, we have appointed a surveyor talk to them. I saw the neighbour yesterday, he just waved at me, normally we would have had a chit chat.

they already have a roof they are happy with, raising the roof is for your benefit not theirs.

The water may currently discharge onto your land, but how much cost or inconvenience is that to you?

I dont know what the root cause of their change of heart is, but money seems a likely contender.

The only way to get anywhere with it is to ask them what the problem is.

 

[platforminc]

I assume both sides were happy (as far as you were aware) with the existing arrangement prior to you wanting to commence work. Rights and wrongs aside, if you dig your heels in now you're in for a load of pain and cost.

I am a new owner, so its not correct to say that i am/was happy with it. I met it there (2 months ago), and when I saw it I was not happy with it at all.

I'd try the carrot and stick. The stick is that their roof drainage is wrong and they should put it right. The carrot is that you'll pay to have the work done for them to avoid a dispute and move things forward. On that basis, hopefully the husband will persuade the wife that she will have to put up with a bit of disproportion

I could compromise over this as the cost is lower than appointing a surveyor, I agree with this. I just feel a bit hard done but I can live with it. I still believe their roof draining onto my garden is very very wrong and if the tables were turned around, they would not like it either.

I can appreciate how you feel. However, the fact remains that the only reason that this has come to light is because you want to make a change.

I assume both sides were happy (as far as you were aware) with the existing arrangement prior to you wanting to commence work. Rights and wrongs aside, if you dig your heels in now you're in for a load of pain and cost.

The solution for this is for you to throw a bit time, money and charm at the problem, not use the legal route which will only cause friction, unhappiness and a delayed build.

I'd try the carrot and stick. The stick is that their roof drainage is wrong and they should put it right. The carrot is that you'll pay to have the work done for them to avoid a dispute and move things forward. On that basis, hopefully the husband will persuade the wife that she will have to put up with a bit of disproportion.

 

[platforminc]

There is normally an express or implied easement or right to drain roof water across a neighbour's attached roof and gutters. One neighbour can’t just block it off and expect the other to alter his roof.

Can you please explain this, as I want to reach out to my solicitors if they knew about any right the neighbour had to drain water into my garden.
I say this because when I look at other neighbours, this is not how some have done it. A lot of people drain their roof individually, if I didn't have a garage would the neighbour not have found a solution or are you suggesting the water would just be pouring towards my flank wall and causing damp issues ?


Also altering my roof is not the issue, its theirs which falls towards mine. Unfortunately, what makes it complicated is the party wall. If I however built a new wall, then they would have to sort out this problem by themselves, because at that point, it wouldn't stop my work, because I no longer have to deal with a party wall issue, and I can sue for damages.

Remember, this route would be costly for me and also for them, so it makes no sense going down this route for the sake or being reasonable.

Of course it's for your benefit. You want to alter the roof, not the neighbour, the alterations are for your benefit to help with whatever else you are doing.

There is normally an express or implied easement or right to drain roof water across a neighbour's attached roof and gutters. One neighbour can’t just block it off and expect the other to alter his roof.

If the PW Act applies to raising the party wall, then that will deal with the required roof alterations to the neighbour's roof.