Permitted planning and loft conversion

[freddiemercurystwin]

I still don't really know for sure exactly what the OP has done already and is planning on doing in the future!

 

[DevilDamo]

It is a little confusing... to say the least.

I'm now also thinking about doing a second floor rear extension (ie above a single storey part of the house) under PD. Now if I were to do this first I would obviously increase the roof volume as a result of this extension.

Would this increase be then subtracted from the 50m3 I would be allowed for the loft conversion. Or could I carry on and make a loft conversion of the full 50m3 despite the fact that I've done the 2nd floor extension?

I interpreted that as... if he builds a 1st floor rear extension, would the volume of the roof over that extension be removed from the total volume permitted under PD. Bear in mind this roof will be a traditional roof... used for storage and NOT to be used a bedroom/study.

Because as per the PD guidelines on the PP...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonextensionreal/

It does NOT mention the 40/50 cu.m allowances as that is to do with loft conversions, not extensions.

 

[DevilDamo]

Does this make more sense?

Option 1
http://www.damianhill.co.uk/documents/option_1.pdf

Option 2
http://www.damianhill.co.uk/documents/option_2.pdf

Something I have also just remembered... before the new PD changes in 1st October 2008, didn't PD used to be based on volume of extensions/loft conversions, etc... so that is when the volume of an extension was deducted from the volume of a loft conversion? Since the changes in 1st Octobr 2008, the PD guidelines have been split into the different categories (i.e. extensions, loft conversions, outbuildings, etc...) so can now carry out extensions under certain allowances as well as loft conversions whereas before they were all totalled together?

 

[ukplanner]

Some thoughts -

1) A loft conversion that does not involve any external changes to the building does not constitute development, and therefore PD rights do not come into it. Internal changes to buildings don't fall under the remit of the Planning system.

2) Velux windows can be installed under Class C of the GPDO. No volume limit is included within this class.

3) The PD volume limits changed in October 2008. The only mention of volume comes under Class B Roof Extensions - 40/50 cubic metres of resulting roof space. For the purposes of Class B ‘resulting roof space’ means the roof space as enlarged, taking into account any enlargement to the original roof space, whether permitted by this Class or not (so Class A extensions are counted).

To be permitted development any additional roof space created must not increase the volume of the original roof space of the house by more than 40 cubic metres for terraced houses and 50 cubic metres for semi-detached and detached houses. Any previous enlargement to the original roof space in any part of the house must be included in this volume allowance. ‘Original roof space’ will be that roof space in the ‘original building’.

So, in summary, a loft conversion that only relies on velux windows for light could well be permitted development. Volume limits are not an issue.

If the loft extension involves the creation of dormer windows or similar then Class B comes into play, as do the volume limits. All roof extensions are counted in the calculation, whether they are habitable or not.

Hope this helps. I'd recommend you run this past your Council or instruct a planning consultant. Don't rely solely on this informal advice.

 

[DevilDamo]

As per the PP...

Planning permission is not normally required. However, permission is required where you extend or alter the roof space and it exceeds specified limits and conditions.

Under new regulations that came into effect from 1 October 2008 a loft conversion for your house is considered to be permitted development, not requiring an application for planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

• A volume allowance of 40 cubic metres additional roof space for terraced houses*
• A volume allowance of 50 cubic metres additional roof space for detached and semi-detached houses*• No extension beyond the plane of the existing roof slope of the principal elevation that fronts the highway
• No extension to be higher than the highest part of the roof
• Materials to be similar in appearance to the existing house
• No verandas, balconies or raised platforms
• Side-facing windows to be obscure-glazed; any opening to be 1.7m above the floor
• Roof extensions not to be permitted development in designated areas**
• Roof extensions, apart from hip to gable ones, to be set back, as far as practicable, at least 20cm from the eaves

I was told by our LPA that any additional roof space, which was deemed as space that is not currently used as habitale/usable floor space would be included within this volume limitation.

Are you saying that is not correct and the volume limitations ONLY come into force if you're installing dormers (i.e. creating additional volume)?

 

[DevilDamo]

And going back to the above quote...

However, permission is required where you extend or alter the roof space and it exceeds specified limits and conditions.

Is converting a loft that is used for storage to a loft that is to be used as habitable not an alteration? Or are they always referring to physical extensions/alterations that would change the physical appearance of the roof?

 

[ukplanner]

Yup - the volume calculation is only for an extension of a roof, not just using the existing roof space. You could put some flooring in an existing roof without any planning permission - internal works do not constitute development.

This is a very handy guide - http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/miniguides/loft/loft_conversion.html (Note that the measurement only relates to the dormer).

 

[DevilDamo]

Yes, the PP guides are very good but obviously... quite misleading or they are how I interpreted the loft conversion one

I always refer to the PP links but on this occasion, I was told otherwise by a planning officer for a job I was involved with (where I ran through the procedures in obtaining a Certificate of Lawfulness). Ok, the roof works in this instance did involve creating new dormers but when I was asked to justify the additional space, I was told to include the whole roof (even where it exists under the slope).

Oh well, you learn something every day

 

[indus]

Sorry I've been away from this site for a little while.

I've gone to my architect to discuss my plans. He seems to think we can do both things and they aren't related. What I mean by this is

1) Do a loft conversion which will increase the roof space by 48m3 (ie less than 50m3) Under PD

2) Then immediately after do a first floor extension. This would have a pitched roof which has an additional volume of 20m3. Again under PD

Has he got it wrong?

Thanks [/b]

 

[DevilDamo]

1) Do a loft conversion which will increase the roof space by 48m3 (ie less than 50m3) Under PD

You're talking about the proposed dormers creating an additional 48 cu.m because as discussed in this thread, the additional volume is ONLY controlled by the formation of dormers.

2) Then immediately after do a first floor extension. This would have a pitched roof which has an additional volume of 20m3. Again under PD

No need to do it straight after. But anyway, this extension wouldn't be dictated by the volume as that's the old way (before 1st October 2008) of carrying out works. They would have to be within the PD guidelines for extensions...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonextensionreal/

 

[indus]

Thank you.

1) The roof volume expansion with regards to the loft will be as a result of dormers at the back and a hip to gable at the side. This volume increase as mentioned will be approx 48m3.

2) I know I don't need to do the first floor rear extension immediately but for convenience sake will be. This pitched roof will have a volume of 20m3.

Thanks for pointing out the two aren't related and both can be done under separate parts of the PD rules.

 

[DevilDamo]

1. Yes, that's fine. If you wish to proceed down the Certificate of Lawfulness route, then you will have to provide evidence of how the volumes have been calculated, which is something your architect can do.

2. Under PD, extensions have nothing to do with the "volume" of the roof. They have restrictions, e.g. depth of extension, distance from boundary, height to eaves/ridge, etc...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonextensionreal/

The link above... again.

 

[jeds]

Sorry I've been away from this site for a little while.

I've gone to my architect to discuss my plans. He seems to think we can do both things and they aren't related. What I mean by this is

1) Do a loft conversion which will increase the roof space by 48m3 (ie less than 50m3) Under PD

2) Then immediately after do a first floor extension. This would have a pitched roof which has an additional volume of 20m3. Again under PD

Has he got it wrong?

Thanks [/b]

Yes, he has got it wrong. Additions and alterations to the roof volume are limited to 50m³ (or 40m) full stop. It doesn't matter which class you enlarge under. Once you reach 50/40 cubic metres everything after that needs a planning application.

 

[DevilDamo]

John (jeds) is right.

indus... If you are wanting to progress both aspects of the work under PD, then you're going to have to look at comprimising. So... reduce the volume of the dormers to compensate for the roof volume of the extension?

What roofs are proposed to the dormers and the extension?

 

[indus]

This is getting confusing.

DevilDamo, in the last few posts weren't you agreeing that the roof volume expansion caused by the first floor extension had nothing to do with the limits imposed on loft conversions roof volumes? You said extensions were governed by a different set of rules under PD. No you have said the opposite?

To Jeds and Devil,

If what you are saying is true then why is it that on the planning portal under rules for 1st floor rear extension nowhere does it say 'roof volume to be kept under 50m3'? All the rules are there, ie distance from neighbour, not being able to go more than 3m in depth etc but no roof volume limit.

To take your theory further, if I were to do just a rear 1st floor extension under PD that met all the other criteria but the roof volume were to go over 50m3 it would now need planning permission?

Thanks