Pinched neutral off upstairs lighting for landing light

[flameport]

I will also get someone I know to test and issue a certificate so its above board

Why can't you do that yourself?
There is no difference between testing for commercial, industrial or domestic.

Also is fishing up the cavity frowned upon?

Yes, as cavities are full of sharp edges, lumps of mortar and other junk which can damage cables, and that damage can't be seen.

 

[Michaelsf90]

I dont work for myself and I'm not nic so I would need to get someone else to officially sign it off. Would I be better off running some adaptable conduit up? Its difficult because the consumer unit is within the cavity itself at the bottom of the stairs. So all the circuits disappear into the cavity! It is also the only wall with some kind of insulation in. Only way I can describe the insulation is like hamster bedding

 

[ericmark]

I will also get someone I know to test and issue a certificate so its above board

Some one else can only issue an EICR, yes nearly the same form, but I found the LABC has a list of electricians from whom they will accept an EICR from, and they need engaging by the LABC not the person doing the work, one would assume because they are instructed to see if it complies with current edition of BS7671 rather than just being safe.

Basic only person who can complete an installation certificate is person in control of the work, so have to use an EICR form but test as one would for an installation certificate.

But as an electrician you would know that, so it would seem your not an electrician?

Personally I don't care if you don't pay the LABC tax, lets no pretend that is all it is, I tried to get copies of certificates and failed, so seems they are not stored for future reference so whole system no more than a tax.

However for the sake of £30 dragging in new cables seems silly. Just go wireless. This is why I have Energenie MiHome light switches in my bedroom, it is simply not worth drawing in new cables, I in my case have a remote control next to the beds.

 

[securespark]

I did say 'easily available'. Other (apparently) than for CEF, which other electrical wholesalers are likely to have it 'on their shelves' and, perhaps, more to the point (in this DIY forum), which source commonly used by DIYers (other than eBay, if they are prepared to 'risk' that!) could supply it in small lengths?

Kind Regards, John

What is wrong with eBay? You exclude it as if it isn't somewhere that is easily accessible to everyone.

 

[Michaelsf90]

I am an electrician I've just never worked for myself and domestic isnt my bag at all. I've always worked for companies. I can test and inspect. I know what the readings are and what the readings have to be. I can inspect and test. I just dont know the ins and outs of certification

 

[ericmark]

In England some schemes do allow scheme members to do third party inspections, but as with direct LABC you has to arrange it before you start, and in England only new circuits and CU need notifying and running the new cable for the neutral is not a new circuit.

In Wales it is a little tighter, scheme members can't sign off third party work, and the work needing notifying is higher, but still would not see running a new cable three core and earth to replace a two core and earth is going to require notifying.

I complete minor works or installation certificates mainly as a check list, it ensures you have not forgot something.

 

[Michaelsf90]

I always thought certificates could only be signed off by someone registered through nic or napit or someone like that. I can fill in my own certificate from what bs7671 provides but I always thought they'd be worth and amount to nothing

 

[JohnW2]

What is wrong with eBay? You exclude it as if it isn't somewhere that is easily accessible to everyone.

I use eBay all the time, very extensively, and have done so for many years.

However, it seems 'traditional' here for people to be untrusting of the 'provenance' and quality/safety of anything bought on eBay (or Amazon etc.), so I thought I ought to at least pay lip service to such concerns.

I must have bought a few thousand things on eBay over the years, a good few of which have been electrical/electronic, and I have personally never had any significant problem or 'cause for concern'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I always thought certificates could only be signed off by someone registered through nic or napit or someone like that.

That only applies to 'self-certification' ('self-notification') of notifiable work - as an alternative to 'notifying directly' (with the associated £££ fee) to LABC.

Anyone who undertakes any electrical work can (and theoretically should) complete an EIC or minor works cert, and that remains true even if (like me!) they are in no way an electrician - the problem there being that the great majority of non-electricians don't have the means (or necessarily knowledge) to undertake the required tests.

Other than 'if required by the recipient' (which may, for example, now be the case in relation to private rented properties), there is also no 'requirement' as to who can undertake an EICR (although how seriously it is taken will presumably depend upon who has undertaken it) - but, again, that certainly requires the appropriate test gear and associated knowledge.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

I know what the readings are and what the readings have to be. I can inspect and test. I just dont know the ins and outs of certification

The electrical installation certificate for domestic is the same as for any other installation. So are the tests and inspections.

I always thought certificates could only be signed off by someone registered through nic or napit or someone like that.

Domestic work which is notifiable can only be notified through those organisations by people who are members of them.
However that ship has sailed - work must either be notified to building control before it's started, and members of those organisations are only allowed to notify their own work.
Notifying someone else's work afterwards isn't an option.

I can fill in my own certificate from what bs7671 provides

Carry on then.

but I always thought they'd be worth and amount to nothing

Their purpose is a record of what work was done, when it was done, who did it, evidence that it was safe and that it complied with BS7671.
Things that apply to all electrical installations and have done for ever.
They are typically your only defence under the EAWR.

 

[Michaelsf90]

I could easily test my own property but I know it will fail. My downstairs ring main has no end to end on the earth. I need to get under the floor and replace a leg from the mains to whichever socket it goes to. I figured I could get someone in to issue a certificate and test it all but until I've fixed the fault it is evidently going to fail. I know I wouldn't pass it unless the rcbo was changed to a 16A as in essence it is 2 radials for the earth. But once I have done it I will get it tested

 

[ericmark]

I am an electrician I've just never worked for myself and domestic isnt my bag at all. I've always worked for companies. I can test and inspect. I know what the readings are and what the readings have to be. I can inspect and test. I just dont know the ins and outs of certification

To get a completion or compliance certificate if required when your not a scheme member means telling whoever is going to do it before the work starts, they tell you at what stage they want to inspect, and in Wales where I live it costs £100 plus vat, so in the main if it needs notifying simply not worth doing DIY.

They with me at least did not want to inspect themselves, but wanted to use a local electrician which would have also have paid for by me. So cost of inspection can easy be over the cost of whole job, so in real terms unless a rather big job under the £2000 limit but getting close to it, or LABC charges are waved, or it does not need notifying then not worth doing as DIY.

If a rented house no option, but owner occupied who will find out? The only time anyone is likely to find out is if some thing goes wrong, which one would hope as an electrician nothing will go wrong, however having minor works or installation certificates does show you took due care, and lists what you have done, rather than some one before you. As to what needs notifying that is a little grey where we are told using a FCU does not form a new circuit so clearly not using BS7671 definitions so it is down to the courts to decide, and it will only go to court if you get it wrong.

So a consumer unit is a type tested distribution unit, so unless all inside the CU is type tested to be used with the CU then it is not a CU, I don't think this argument would stand up in court, but it would need to go to court, which will only happen if you get it wrong.

Domestic is not my bag either, but I can read, what the problem is difference in law and approved document, and what case law has been established. And it seems where things have gone wrong, there is far more than simple Part P in question. But as to running a new neutral it is so easy to fit wireless switches just can't see the point.

 

[Michaelsf90]

The legal and certification side is a minefield. Rules are in place for a reason tho. As you said. Its my house so someone will only know if something goes wrong. Once the fault on the downstairs ring is sorted and I've ran a circuit in for a cooker in the kitchen il get someone to inspect and test and have a full certificate. That way I'm covered

 

[Risteard]

Is such an animal easily available in small CSAs? Maybe it is in your country but, over here, insulated and sheathed singles are commonly only available in sizes from 10mm² upwards, intended for (as often described as) 'meter tails'.

It's a stock item here available off-the-shelf at all wholesalers.