PM hopeful Truss blamed YOU for Britain's failure

[Deleted member 18243]

YES YOU CAN. That’s what security guards are there for.

So, an Asian in a puffer jacket on a warm night struggling to carry what looks like a backpack full of bricks at an Ariana Grande concert should not be challenged? How silly of m............

Like x1000 Mottie.

lack of police and well paid experienced security staff was the real problem

NO. Tony Blair's and Jack Straw's opening of the floodgates to millions of the scum of the earth was the problem.

In the 70's and 80's, the heyday of large pop and rock festivals, was there ever a threat of bombings or any form of killing? The police were ever-present at these festivals, and the main problem for them to deal with back then was drug-taking, fighting and general rowdiness. If the police had abandoned these events in the 70s and 80s, there would have been no bombings by anti-western muslim lunatics because there wasn't a large, uncontrolled and unmonitored contingent of anti-western muslim lunatics at large in Britain at that time.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

Perhaps people should recall May and police cuts.

Since Theresa May became home secretary in 2010 the number of police officers has fallen by 21,500

The total number of people employed by the police is what matters, because that's where our money, the money we are forced to pay in taxes, in the good faith that that money will provide is with peace and security, goes.

Have a look at the total number of people employed by the police. You might find it is higher than, or nearly as high as, it has ever been.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

NO. Tony Blair's and Jack Straw's opening of the floodgates to millions of the scum of the earth was the problem.

In the 70's and 80's, the heyday of large pop and rock festivals, was there ever a threat of bombings or any form of killing? The police were ever-present at these festivals, and the main problem for them to deal with back then was drug-taking, fighting and general rowdiness. If the police had abandoned these events in the 70s and 80s, there would have been no bombings by anti-western muslim lunatics because there wasn't a large, uncontrolled and unmonitored contingent of anti-western muslim lunatics at large in Britain at that time.

You really do need to get out more

 

[ellal]

In the 70's and 80's, the heyday of large pop and rock festivals, was there ever a threat of bombings or any form of killing?

The IRA?

 

[Justin Passing]

Police officer numbers. You can see where they were slashed, then soared were decimated, and crashed, exploded and dwindled,

Load of BS.

 

[Pat ex]

Police officer numbers. You can see where they were slashed, then soared were decimated, and crashed, exploded and dwindled,

Load of BS.

View attachment 277561

The number of police officers in England and Wales is at close to the lowest recorded level since the early 1980s. That drop of 20,600 represents a 14% fall since 2010. After accounting for the growth in population, the number of police officers per person has fallen by 19%.

Police officer numbers in England and Wales - Full Fact

The number of police officers has dropped by 20,600 since 2010.

fullfact.org

 

[Odds]

Like x1000 Mottie.

NO. Tony Blair's and Jack Straw's opening of the floodgates to millions of the scum of the earth was the problem.

In the 70's and 80's, the heyday of large pop and rock festivals, was there ever a threat of bombings or any form of killing? The police were ever-present at these festivals, and the main problem for them to deal with back then was drug-taking, fighting and general rowdiness. If the police had abandoned these events in the 70s and 80s, there would have been no bombings by anti-western muslim lunatics because there wasn't a large, uncontrolled and unmonitored contingent of anti-western muslim lunatics at large in Britain at that time.

When a bunch of us went to see Black Sabbath at Stafford in 1981 a mate brought two six-packs for 'iron rations' to get us through the gig. I warned him they might search his bag and we should drink up while we waited - over 3 hours! - to get inside. Not wanting to pay over-the-odds for beer in the hall, he took a chance...and sure enough his bag was searched, beer gone (for a security guard bonus) and faced with the prospect of being ripped off swore long and loud for weeks afterwards.
Great gig though.

I'm sure if i'd turned up at that concert with a backpack full of booze they'd have swiftly confiscated it, had a fine pi$$-up at my expense, so why someone dressed as they were wasn't challenged does raise questions.

 

[Pat ex]

Police officer numbers. You can see where they were slashed, then soared were decimated, and crashed, exploded and dwindled,

Load of BS.

View attachment 277561

If we look at some other graphs, a couple of things become apparent.

Crime has reduced since its peak of 1995. suggesting that the highlighting and concerns of the many posters on here tends to focus on specific crimes or perpetrators. The figures do not justify the 'frenzy' demonstrated by some. In reality, the population increase, make-up, etc appears to have had a beneficial effect on the number of crimes being committed.
Also, when compared to a timeline of governments, it becomes rather obvious that Maggie Thatcher's time in government gave rise to a serious increase in crime.

Of course there are some variables that are out of our control, such as crimes being recorded, population density, etc.

 

[Pat ex]

So, an Asian in a puffer jacket on a warm night struggling to carry what looks like a backpack full of bricks at an Ariana Grande concert should not be challenged?


"Kyle Lawler, then 18 and paid just $5.50 an hour, had been alerted to a suspicious-looking Salman Abedi sitting near an exit to the Manchester Arena with a big bag and dressed in heavy clothing on a hot May night, he told a public inquiryinto the attack.

As Lawler and a colleague watched the 22-year-old terrorist from 10 feet away, Abedi “became fidgety” and tried to avoid eye contact, Lawler recalled.

“I just had a bad feeling about him … I felt something was wrong,” Lawler told the hearing, saying he felt “conflicted” because even though he “felt that he did not belong there” he “did not know why.”"

I'm sure if i'd turned up at that concert with a backpack full of booze they'd have swiftly confiscated it, had a fine pi$$-up at my expense, so why someone dressed as they were wasn't challenged does raise questions.

You can't rely on Mottie's embroidering the description as factual.

But the genuine comments by the "security guard" does raise real concerns about the briefing given to 18 year olds on £5.50 ph. What do to do, when, who to call and when. A member of public alerted Kyle Lawler, and another steward alerted Kyle Lawler, and he still did nothing. He apparently attempted to alert security, but was unable to get through to anyone, so gave up. Then he went outside and still did nothing. He admitted to not knowing what to do.
He also admitted to making false statements numerous times, immediately after the incident, verbally and in writing.
It would appear that not only did he not do anything, he was an unreliable witness.
Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Mottie]

You can't rely on Mottie's embroidering the description as factual.

But the genuine comments by the "security guard" does raise real concerns about the briefing given to 18 year olds on £5.50 ph. What do to do, when, who to call and when. A member of public alerted Kyle Lawler, and another steward alerted Kyle Lawler, and he still did nothing. He apparently attempted to alert security, but was unable to get through to anyone, so gave up. Then he went outside and still did nothing. He admitted to not knowing what to do.
He also admitted to making false statements immediately after the incident, verbally and in writing.
It would appear that not only did he not do anything, he was an unreliable witness.
Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Would you have challenged him if you had been working security that night?

 

[Pat ex]

Would you have challenged him if you had been working security that night?

I did see your question earlier, and I thought there's no point answering a daft hypothetical question.
But I've given it some thought, and I will answer it. It might initiate some additional debate.

Assuming I was in the same position as Kyle Lawler, not having received any guidance, nor training as to what to do in such circumstances, who to call, how to behave, etc, and having been aware that at least two others had their suspicions, and being aware that the bomber (if he was a bomber) could detonate his device whenever he chose. I would have at least talked to him, but I think I would have preferred to have activated the fire alarm, to create a mass evacuation, and being aware that even a mass evacuation can be risky in itself. I definitely would have persisted in trying to alert someone more senior.
OK, if I was wrong, and he turned out to be an innocent visitor, and I had caused a mass evacuation, I could live with that.

In hindsight, which Kyle Lawler only had available to him to give his account, which changed many times, I think there ought to have been a silent alarm connected to the radios, for use in such situations. An alarm that alerts all the staff, but not the visitors. Then someone with more experience could assess the situation, and initiate an appropriate response, delay the concert, redirect the rest of the visitors, restrict further entry to anymore, etc.

 

[Justin Passing]

I did see your question earlier, and I thought there's no point answering a daft hypothetical question.
But I've given it some thought, and I will answer it. It might initiate some additional debate.

Assuming I was in the same position as Kyle Lawler, not having received any guidance, nor training as to what to do in such circumstances, who to call, how to behave, etc, and having been aware that at least two others had their suspicions, and being aware that the bomber (if he was a bomber) could detonate his device whenever he chose. I would have at least talked to him, but I think I would have preferred to have activated the fire alarm, to create a mass evacuation, and being aware that even a mass evacuation can be risky in itself. I definitely would have persisted in trying to alert someone more senior.
OK, if I was wrong, and he turned out to be an innocent visitor, and I had caused a mass evacuation, I could live with that.

In hindsight, which Kyle Lawler only had available to him to give his account, which changed many times, I think there ought to have been a silent alarm connected to the radios, for use in such situations. An alarm that alerts all the staff, but not the visitors. Then someone with more experience could assess the situation, and initiate an appropriate response, delay the concert, redirect the rest of the visitors, restrict further entry to anymore, etc.

Fire alarm wouldn't have been unreasonable. As long as he had a load of photos of the guy to cover his own backside.
Otherwise, imagine him explaining why he'd pressed it. "Well, there was a man" etc.
But if he'd started taking pictures it could have been his last ever act.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Would you have challenged him if you had been working security that night?

Would I have challenged the subject? Maybe, who knows until they are in that situation. But I am older, more experienced and most likely more confident and able to decide what to do without being told by a manager etc.


But you are missing the real point, who was, and should have been in control of security, and how many of the security staff were there? How well trained were they? Had this guy even been given any proper instructions on what to do and when, and how ?


It would be interesting to know what training he had been given, and what he was expected to do. Who and how to contact a line manager or other.
Easy to criticise him, but it may have been his 1st job, and with little experience or guidance would not want to keep challenging people and getting complained at. Paid at the money he was does not signify he was in any position of authority, just another number to help out.

 

[Justin Passing]

Police officer numbers in England and Wales - Full Fact

The number of police officers has dropped by 20,600 since 2010.

fullfact.org

I grant your the population change, though you're picking the peak and trough. Do you think the change in numbers made a difference to the Arena bombing? ie if there had been an extra couple there? From your other graph, crime went down about a third beteen 2010 and 2017, so they should have had more plods to play with.
I don't.
I tihink it's plain stupid to blame the Govnmnt for this, and shows up the ranters.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

I grant your the population change, though you're picking the peak and trough. Do you think the change in numbers made a difference to the Arena bombing? ie if there had been an extra couple there? From your other graph, crime went down about a third beteen 2010 and 2017, so they should have had more plods to play with.
I don't.
I tihink it's plain stupid to blame the Govnmnt for this, and shows up the ranters.

How many police were on duty at the event?