Potterton Suprima

[geoff@cetltd]

Do we have a case of a CORGI fitter incorrectly diaqgnosing a problem?

Maybe, but what's certain is that we have a case of you being a provocative pratt once again.

Absolutely

Either CORGI registration means that someone is a professional or it doesn't.

It's hardly rocket science to diagnose whether the pcb or pump is at fault, why should a customer pay for a fitter's inability to do this correctly

If the standard answer is "get a professional in" then a professional is what people have a right to expect

 

[doitall]

Yes raden I agree to a point.

No-one and I repeat No-one knows it all, and we all have to make it up and rely on good judgement sometimes.

It's called experience, and I have had to rely on that many times when on call, as I hardly ever touch domestic boilers and yet I've never failed to get one working.

 

[ollski]

[It's hardly rocket science to diagnose whether the pcb or pump is at fault, why should a customer pay for a fitter's inability to do this correctly

It does all depend if the fault is present when the engineer looks at it and with this type of fault I would guess it wasn't.

Unfortunately being corgi registered has never had anything to do with diagnostic skills, simply says you can do the gas side safely.

 

[BigD]

In the end, if you pass the job of repairing a boiler to a reputable firm, you should expect it to be handed back repaired.

But if you muddy the waters by second-guessing what they're doing and asking them to do specific things based on YOUR analysis of the problem you're paying THEM to diagnose and fix - don't be too surprised if cost and mutual peed-offness escalate.

Thats exactly how I felt. I didn't want to tell him how to do his job. I told him I thought it was the PCB and left it with him to diagnose. Unfortunately he got it wrong.

 

[BigD]

Either CORGI registration means that someone is a professional or it doesn't.

It's hardly rocket science to diagnose whether the pcb or pump is at fault, why should a customer pay for a fitter's inability to do this correctly

If the standard answer is "get a professional in" then a professional is what people have a right to expect

Raden, what's your advice on how he should rectify the situation?

 

[BigD]

And since when do you have the right to comment on my ability to read english.

Easy. Since I and others keep telling you the same things, which you don't seem to want to hear. There's no law saying anyone has to suffer fools gladly.

I have frequented numerous help forums, and to be honest your comments have been the least constructive, not only of my posts, but of any post I have read, anywhere.

Go back and look again - who broke down and spelled out the possibilities for you? You're just chucking lame insults. Very good.

I thought the whole idea behind these forums was to help those not in the know. You should be more understanding that not everyone has the same knowledge (or wants to have the knowledge as you) and just needs some basic constructive advice.

You're being given advice. Which is, Don't get hung up on it being the pcb, and certainly don't start demanding a free/cheap replacement or you'll be worse off. If it only exhibits the fault on one of CH or HW, why should it be the pcb, which can't tell the difference? You just don't want to listen. You're being given advice and reasons for it. You're objecting to the reasons and pretending the advice isn't there.

then I've obviously come to the wrong place.

You have. If you don't want to be confused by information, just keep being the one who is soon parted from his money. Good luck in your quest for a forum which gives you unbridled support for your fanciful notions, which seems to be what you're looking for.

Chris, I don't think we are getting anywhere trading insults. Your first post to my question was your advice based on the HW causing the problem. To be honest I couldn't really give it too much credibility because it is the CH causing the tripping. I pointed this out to you which you later acknowledged as your error. I'm not going to take this opportunity to remind you re your comment about me being unable to read english

Why couldn't you have just said, 'in that case, if it is the CH, then it could be ..........'. Some of your comments were constructive, it was a pity they were interspersed with sarcasm and belittlement.

Your fellow forum members seem to be pointing me in the right direction, so I'll take my steer from them.

 

[geoff@cetltd]

I wrote a very eloquent reply and IE7 (beta) crashed when I clicked submit

basically - if a CORGI fitter can't make a proper diagnosis, he shouldn't expect the customer to pay for his lack of competence

Which is nowhere near as complete as wha I typed before, but, it's getting late

 

[croydoncorgi]

Sounds like we've TWO competing Chocolate Teapot suppliers! Potty (Suprima) and Microsoft (IE7). But SURELY you never expected IE7 Beta to fly consistently above ground level? Even the released versions often land with bits of tree still stuck in the intakes!

 

[ACOperson]

I'll stick my oar in here...

BigD, have you tried running the system on HW only for a period of 1-2 days, and confirmed 100% that this only happens on CH call? As this boiler is a heating boiler its PCB cannot differentiate between CH and HW call.

If it is really happening only when CH is on then there must either be a blockage in the CH system causing slow flow, or there is a problem with the motorised valve, and possibly its relation to the pump.

If there is a blockage then this is easy for you to diagnose, run the CH from cold and see how quickly the whole system takes to reach temperature, and if there are any cold rads etc. Personally I think this scenario is unlikey to be the cause here.

Another potential cause (and Chris has pointed to this too) is the motorised valve on the CH circuit. Its possible that there is an electrical fault in the actuator, or that its SWL wire is sometimes not bringing the pump on when the boiler is firing.

Personally, I think that it probably IS a PCB fault, and that it DOES also happen when HW only is on too, but that you have not noticed it as HW is only on once or twice a day for a short period of time. Its important for you to be 100% sure that it is happening on CH only before you call someone else out.

 

[geoff@cetltd]

" But SURELY you never expected IE7 Beta to fly consistently above ground level?"

Yeah, it's beta s/w and there will be problems

... I just discovered one

 

[Agile]

Back to the original problem!

The user is convinced that the difficulty ONLY happens on CH !

The boiler does not know what its providing heat for! However the operational parameters on CH and HW are different because the flow resistance on HW and on HW+CH are usually lower than on just CH.

I would be concerning myself with the temperature sensing and the time constants involved and taking dynamic temperature measurements. All this after checking the gas rate and gas valve setup perameters. The PCB would be a last resort when all other parts had been confirmed as operating correctly.

A CORGI who's only ability is to charge for changing a pump when the original one is apparently turning and moving water around the system must be a first suspect. Its not clear if he is the only person involved in this firm or just an employee. Whichever, if they are conscientious then they will wish to solve the problem and will only charge for the parts actually required.

Tony Glazier

 

[Softus]

Do we have a case of a CORGI fitter incorrectly diaqgnosing a problem?

Maybe, but what's certain is that we have a case of you being a provocative pratt once again.

Absolutely

Either CORGI registration means that someone is a professional or it doesn't.

Clearly it doesn't - CORGI means that the RGI is a registered member of CORGI. Being professional, in terms of being punctual, courteous, reliable, fair, businesslike, and profitable, is an entirely independant attribute.

It's hardly rocket science to diagnose whether the pcb or pump is at fault, why should a customer pay for a fitter's inability to do this correctly

I don't know - why should a customer pay?

If the standard answer is "get a professional in" then a professional is what people have a right to expect

The standard answer, if there is one, is that you have to engage an RGI, for very obvious reasons. Sometimes a competent poster is advised that he/she can tackle the problem, up to a point, and do so legally.

You're grinding your axe in the wrong place, in the wrong way, in front of the wrong people. If you have a grudge about the lack of policing of professional standards, then f***ing well go and do something about it instead of making snide, cowardly and ineffectual remarks on seemingly random topics.

 

[Softus]

Back to the original problem!

The user is convinced that the difficulty ONLY happens on CH !

The boiler does not know what its providing heat for! However the operational parameters on CH and HW are different because the flow resistance on HW and on HW+CH are usually lower than on just CH.

I would be concerning myself with the temperature sensing and the time constants involved and taking dynamic temperature measurements. All this after checking the gas rate and gas valve setup perameters. The PCB would be a last resort when all other parts had been confirmed as operating correctly.

A CORGI who's only ability is to charge for changing a pump when the original one is apparently turning and moving water around the system must be a first suspect. Its not clear if he is the only person involved in this firm or just an employee. Whichever, if they are conscientious then they will wish to solve the problem and will only charge for the parts actually required.

Excellent post!

 

[ChrisR]

Your first post to my question was your advice based on the HW causing the problem. To be honest I couldn't really give it too much credibility because it is the CH causing the tripping. I pointed this out to you which you later acknowledged as your error.

I pointed out the ch/hw reversal early on. Obviously if it had been important I would have told you. The point is that the fault is specific to one circuit and not the other, you say. Surely even you could work out that other comments still apply. ACOperson has pointed them out again. Presumably you're going to have a go at him for suggesting that your observational efforts could be better? You've told us you don't know about motorised valves and have done nothing about it, perhaps you're going to tell us you know nothing about controlling CH and HW separately?

Chris, I don't think we are getting anywhere

I don't need to get anywhere, you do, but you won't if you don't listen to anyone not offering free parts.

A CORGI who's only ability is to charge for changing a pump when the original one is apparently turning and moving water around the system must be a first suspect.

We do not know that that is his only ability. The pump may well have been faulty. Slow pumps often cause overheating problems. Anyone suspecting the pump is very likely to have considered other common causes, it isn't justified to assume that he was acting on a whim. We only have the simple comments from the user.

Your fellow forum members seem to be pointing me in the right direction, so I'll take my steer from them.

We're all telling you much the same things, none of us is getting an intelligent response. You've done nothing and looked at nothing, just gone on about wanting free service.

 

[BigD]

I'll stick my oar in here...

BigD, have you tried running the system on HW only for a period of 1-2 days, and confirmed 100% that this only happens on CH call? As this boiler is a heating boiler its PCB cannot differentiate between CH and HW call.

If it is really happening only when CH is on then there must either be a blockage in the CH system causing slow flow, or there is a problem with the motorised valve, and possibly its relation to the pump.

If there is a blockage then this is easy for you to diagnose, run the CH from cold and see how quickly the whole system takes to reach temperature, and if there are any cold rads etc. Personally I think this scenario is unlikey to be the cause here.

Another potential cause (and Chris has pointed to this too) is the motorised valve on the CH circuit. Its possible that there is an electrical fault in the actuator, or that its SWL wire is sometimes not bringing the pump on when the boiler is firing.

Personally, I think that it probably IS a PCB fault, and that it DOES also happen when HW only is on too, but that you have not noticed it as HW is only on once or twice a day for a short period of time. Its important for you to be 100% sure that it is happening on CH only before you call someone else out.

Thanks ACOperson, I appreciate the reply. Yes, I have had HW only for a period of 7days+ with no lock out. It tripped after the CH had been on for c3hrs on Saturday. Just so you know my 'setup'. I currently have the CH & HW set to come on at 6am and go off at 11pm. When the CH isn't needed, I turn the thermostat (situated in the hallway) to 0. As I said, the CH hasn't been on for 7days+, by just having the thermostat set at 0. Would it make any difference if the CH was off on the timer?

Re the rads heating up. I must admit I did think they were slow to heat up, after I had to reset the boiler. The system has cooled now, so I'll test it to see how long it takes.

Re the motorised valves. As you may have gathered, my knowledge is limited . So I have made a note of what you have said and I will talk this through with the plumber when I speak to him.

How can I be 100% sure it is only happening with HW? As you say, it only heats the HW up as required doesn't it, so its not constantly on. Should I run a few baths throughout the day or leave the HW running to force it on? What do you suggest?