Potterton Suprima

[BigD]

I wrote a very eloquent reply and IE7 (beta) crashed when I clicked submit

basically - if a CORGI fitter can't make a proper diagnosis, he shouldn't expect the customer to pay for his lack of competence

Which is nowhere near as complete as wha I typed before, but, it's getting late

Cheers Raden, not to worry. Another comment which makes me feel I could be ok.

 

[BigD]

Back to the original problem!

The user is convinced that the difficulty ONLY happens on CH !

The boiler does not know what its providing heat for! However the operational parameters on CH and HW are different because the flow resistance on HW and on HW+CH are usually lower than on just CH.

I would be concerning myself with the temperature sensing and the time constants involved and taking dynamic temperature measurements. All this after checking the gas rate and gas valve setup perameters. The PCB would be a last resort when all other parts had been confirmed as operating correctly.

A CORGI who's only ability is to charge for changing a pump when the original one is apparently turning and moving water around the system must be a first suspect. Its not clear if he is the only person involved in this firm or just an employee. Whichever, if they are conscientious then they will wish to solve the problem and will only charge for the parts actually required.

Tony Glazier

Tony thanks for that, again just what I was looking for. A summary of what I should be looking for and a way to resolve the issue with the money I have paid. Again I have made notes of what you have said, and will see if the plumber mentions any of this when I next speak to him. Again much appreciated

 

[BigD]

I don't need to get anywhere, you do, but you won't if you don't listen to anyone not offering free parts.

We're all telling you much the same things, none of us is getting an intelligent response. You've done nothing and looked at nothing, just gone on about wanting free service.

Chris you are boring me now. As I have said, you seem to be the only one who hasn't grasped what I am looking for. There have been some very helpful comments from other forum members, which I have read and made notes from. They are providing intelligent and useful information that I can either use myself or talk to the plumber about. You too have mentioned motorised valves and other possible causes, the problem is the rest of your ramblings detracted from what I think might have been advice.

Perhaps you could do me a favour now, and go on another thread and annoy someone else

 

[Softus]

...you seem to be the only one who hasn't grasped what I am looking for.

Oh, it seems to be that he has grasped it quite accurately. Moreover, ChrisR has been remarkably restrained in the face of your bizarrely documented observations and disingenuous approach to getting free help.

 

[ChrisR]

It's an open forum. You can't choose not to be criticised if anyone thinks you deserve it. You can choose whether you get annoyed or not.

How can I be 100% sure it is only happening with HW? As you say, it only heats the HW up as required doesn't it, so its not constantly on. Should I run a few baths throughout the day or leave the HW running to force it on? What do you suggest?

1) Turn the boiler thermostat right up to max, and run a couple of baths. That'll exercise the boiler.

If no lockouts then

2) Turn the cylinder stat up to say 75, and the boiler stat down to 1 and the boiler will keep coming on and off trying to reach the 75 and not getting there (But be careful it'll be v hot if it does). Leave the HW on 24/7.

Neither of these will exercise all types of motorised valve but we still don't know what you have. If you'd searched only this forum you would have found:
EG or 1 x 3 port
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Sundial Plans/3.4 Y Plan.pdf
2 x 2 port
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Sundial Plans/3.2 S Plan.pdf

You must have heard of "Google"?

 

[BigD]

...you seem to be the only one who hasn't grasped what I am looking for.

Oh, it seems to be that he has grasped it quite accurately. Moreover, ChrisR has been remarkably restrained in the face of your bizarrely documented observations and disingenuous approach to getting free help.

Softus, I just thought Chris was rather belittling with some of his remarks. Maybe I'm just not used to his style.

I merely posted as a consumer with limited knowledge of boilers and CH/HW systems. Perhaps I should have explained this at the outset.

There have been some really good, useful replies which makes me think the majority of the forum members replying have understood what I was looking for. Thanks guys

I apologise if I have not asked for help in the correct way, posted bizarre observations or seemed ungrateful It wasn't intentional and like I said, the first time I have encountered any problems on a forum [/i]

 

[BigD]

It's an open forum. You can't choose not to be criticised if anyone thinks you deserve it. You can choose whether you get annoyed or not.

How can I be 100% sure it is only happening with HW? As you say, it only heats the HW up as required doesn't it, so its not constantly on. Should I run a few baths throughout the day or leave the HW running to force it on? What do you suggest?

1) Turn the boiler thermostat right up to max, and run a couple of baths. That'll exercise the boiler.

If no lockouts then

2) Turn the cylinder stat up to say 75, and the boiler stat down to 1 and the boiler will keep coming on and off trying to reach the 75 and not getting there (But be careful it'll be v hot if it does). Leave the HW on 24/7.

Neither of these will exercise all types of motorised valve but we still don't know what you have. If you'd searched only this forum you would have found:
EG or 1 x 3 port
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Sundial Plans/3.4 Y Plan.pdf
2 x 2 port
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Sundial Plans/3.2 S Plan.pdf

You must have heard of "Google"?

Chris, thanks for the constructive bit of the post . You just can't help yourself though can you - I use yahoo actually

Do you know, I think I'm beginning to like you

 

[BigD]

Neither of these will exercise all types of motorised valve but we still don't know what you have. If you'd searched only this forum you would have found:
EG or 1 x 3 port
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Sundial Plans/3.4 Y Plan.pdf
2 x 2 port
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Sundial Plans/3.2 S Plan.pdf

You must have heard of "Google"?

Chris, as we seem to be getting on so well , I've gone looking for the motorised valve. Just to remind you, I am a mere simpleton. There is a valve conected to the 'Albion Mainsflow Cylinder' but this is a 'blending valve' . Where will the motorised valve be likely situated?

As you may know, this is a '2 pump system', which the plumber was surprised by. Also, I'm not sure whether this is significant, but I have had the cylinder temp quite low 55degc, as the shower wasn't drawing in any cold water (new Aqualisa cartridge on order now). The boiler temp was at 3/4 max. Just read the manual which suggests the cylinder should be at 75degc and the boiler set to max. Would this have caused any problems?

 

[Agile]

You are now giving us useful new information.

You have a thermal store! Its normal to set the store to about 75°C and the blending valve to about 55-60°C

The two pumps are used in place of motor valves.

Now the question! Did he change the CH pump ???? I can see his attempt at logical thinking there.

I would nevertheless be following the diagnostic procedures I outlined above. Now I know how your system is configured I would also be looking for the possibility of incorrect operation with the boiler powered and the pump off.

There is a potential inconsistency here. The boiler requires a pump over run controlled by the boiler. To obtain this on your system a relay will be needed and that aspect may have been overlooked by the installer. Without pump over run the boiler can overheat after firing.

Tony Glazier

 

[BigD]

The two pumps are used in place of motor valves.

Tony, I've just realised that now.

ahh quote didn't work

 

[BigD]

You have a thermal store! Its normal to set the store to about 75°C and the blending valve to about 55-60°C

Any idea on how I do that. The knob only has + and -, which way do I turn to make it colder? There is a screw in the middle of the knob, and whilst the knob turns it doesn't move in and out if you see what I mean

The two pumps are used in place of motor valves.

Just realised that now

There is a potential inconsistency here. The boiler requires a pump over run controlled by the boiler. To obtain this on your system a relay will be needed and that aspect may have been overlooked by the installer. Without pump over run the boiler can overheat after firing.

Do you mean the original installer or the one last week?

 

[ChrisR]

The can of worms is open.
There is a wide range of possibilities, could be like this but you will see several more complex options

Look at the albion-online site - thermal store , and see what matches.

 

[BigD]

Ok - I've now increased the cylinder store to 70 and adjusted the bleed valve so the HW is the correct temp out the tap.

Chris - do I need to do exercise 1 and 2 from your previous post, now we've ascertained I haven't got motorised valves?

My system appears to be the Direct Mainsflow twin pump, here http://www.albion-online.co.uk/Hand...#search='albion thermal store blending valve' which looks pretty much like your diagram

 

[ChrisR]

No motorised valves in sight then? Certain?
Question - are you able to have CH on without HW?

Which of those pumps did he replace?
I don't see a need for a relay if it's wired properly.

Yes you could still do the variations in temp, but as you only (if it's all configured as i/we think) have one circulation path then CH causing the fault is unlikely as far as I can see, especially as you've had the boiler set low.

Removing the external factor dependence leaves the full gamut of reasons why suprimas lock out. But 95 times/100 it's the pcb.

 

[doitall]

Ah look a sludge bucket

Remove and check pump one for sludge.