price

[fitz1]

is everyone useing plastic now.job prices dont seem to be increasing yet copper pipe has trebled.

 

[Softus]

Personally, I do use more plastic than copper, but I would also say that job prices are increasing. Why would they not?

 

[Agile]

I hope not! Copper is the professionals choice!

There is always a lag in the transmission of price increases. In any case the installation costs are much higher than the materials costs.

Tony

 

[Softus]

I hope not! Copper is the professionals choice!

You pompous burke. What exactly is your definition of "professional"?

 

[boilerbeasty]

I would have thought that plastic pipe have advantages for thermal efficency and inertia. And weight ? And cost...now that copper is going up ?

So what's the problem ? Is it that the plastic pipe on offer can't handle very hot water from the CH, and the fittings/connectors tend to leak ?

Or is it that plumbers, engineers and professionals aren't as used to it yet? Has anyone had formal training in this yet ? And is a matter of getting or having the 'knack' given the opportunity of using it at a few customer jobs ?

Copper has dropped $1000/tonne in the last month, so i'll be sure to ask for a discount when I get that radiator moved.

 

[DP]

My prefered material is copper. Plastic has its place but for neatness coppper takes front seat. Have just finished replacing a UV cylinder. All done in copper. Hate to imagine what plastic would have looked like.

Most of my work is boiler repairs. Water out the tap (in my area) has pH of 7. I am regularly repairing systems that are plumbed in old acorn, plastic and barrier plastic that have backed up. This does not happen overnight but many moons later when original installer has hit the road.

I say instal more plastic- more work for the repairman.

 

[simond]

my problem with plastic is that the warranties against leakage all have disclaimers against the installer scratching the outer surface of the pipe.

Bearing in mind the best use for plastic has been where access is very limited eg: ducts etc this is bit of a nuisance.

The only way round it is to tape or sleeve the end you will be termninating prior to pulling it through joists.

So it's still copper for us....for now.

 

[namsag]

Personally only use copper for neatness and more or less certainty that fittings are not going to jump off weeeks /months later, how long are the O rings going to last. I have heard too many stories of failing joints and floods to trust it, mate has had 3 joints go under boards in a brand new house in less than a year. As for prices we have put total cost of the job up accordingly. Also collectively managed to get local plumbcentre to drop price of 15mm from the £1.90`s a metre it reached last month back down to £1.50 and 22mm accordingly, by taking business elsewhere and letting them know why. Still dearer than PTS at £1.35 but more convienent for us. 62p a metre seems so long ago.

 

[ChrisRoberts]

Main problems with plastic pipe is it does look un-pro', no matter what anyone says. I was told by an old plumber that the customer is paying for a pro' pipe fitter. They don't want to look at the job and think I could've done that! So that's flexi tap tales out too.....
Also plastic is not rodent proof. I've been to 2 houses now with mice/rats eating thru the pipe.
Lastly some of the cheaper pipe is not of the barrier type. Use this on your heating system and watch your combi pressure!
Having said that if copper goes up much more then we might not have a choice.
I bet if they had the tinternet 40 years ago then we'd be having the same debate with copper v's lead pipe.
As for the plastic fitting "jumping off", try pressure testing one. We connected one via a compression fitting to a bucket pump. Pumped it up to a huge pressure and guess what let go first? That's right the compression fitting.

 

[ChrisR]

Plastic pipe doesn't mean pushfit connectors.

I've seen leaks on every make of pushfit, but not ONE on a compression joint used on plastic pipe.
They're as cheap or cheaper too.
And easier to do up in tight spots under floors than trying to get 22mm hep together.

Saw the other combination recently, a flat surface-piped in copper, using Polypipe pushfit. Lovely!!

Re pressure testing, yes they like 3 bar, but then can weep quite a bit when the pressure drops. Non twist-ring Speedfit are good at that.

 

[pf_mills]

Well I am a DIY’er and have just put a full CH system in my house. My RGI commissioned it. He was very kind and said it looked a 'professional job'..even had a magnaclean.

I used copper throughout. Two bundles of 15mm and 9 lengths of 22mm. Yes it was a job feeding through the centre of joists and soldering in difficult positions etc

My local plumbing shop said why not use plastic, but as I am emigrating soon and renting the house, I just didn’t fancy any of the problems highlighted above.

And it looks neat and tidy. No leaks now and hopefully none in the future.

 

[Agile]

I am impressed that so many people here agree with me that copper is the choice for a professional installation where quality comes first before cost and ease of fitting.

Unfortunately all that Softus can do is call me a "pompous burke" because I prefer to do the best job with the best materials.

Part of being "professional" is to be polite. Rudeness like that is just another public demonstration that Softus is not very professional.

Tony

 

[Softus]

I would have thought that plastic pipe have advantages for thermal efficency and inertia. And weight ?

Quite so.

And cost...now that copper is going up ?

Even when copper is cheap plastic and pushfit doesn't make for a more expensive job, because it's quicker to install.

So what's the problem ? Is it that the plastic pipe on offer can't handle very hot water from the CH

But they can!

...and the fittings/connectors tend to leak ?

But they don't! And if you don't like 'O' rings you can still use compression fittings.

Or is it that plumbers, engineers and professionals aren't as used to it yet? Has anyone had formal training in this yet ? And is a matter of getting or having the 'knack' given the opportunity of using it at a few customer jobs?

Only those who narrow-mindedly refuse to use it can possibly explain why.

My prefered material is copper.

What - in all circumstances, or just in those where you cite examples of where copper is better?

Most of my work is boiler repairs. Water out the tap (in my area) has pH of 7. I am regularly repairing systems that are plumbed in old acorn, plastic and barrier plastic that have backed up.

Sorry to be dense about this, but what do all these words mean?

I say instal more plastic- more work for the repairman.

So what you're saying is that plastic "backs up" (sic.) more frequently than copper corrodes and erodes? Do you have the figures for that?

my problem with plastic is that the warranties against leakage all have disclaimers against the installer scratching the outer surface of the pipe.

Yeah - isn't it a drag that you have to read and follow the MIs.

Bearing in mind the best use for plastic has been where access is very limited...

Or when you want to do the job more quickly, or when you want to be able to dismantle and change an installation quickly and easily, or where you don't want to risk a naked flame, or where you want to save on fittings and time otherwise spent bending copper...

...eg: ducts etc this is bit of a nuisance.

The only way round it is to tape or sleeve the end you will be termninating prior to pulling it through joists.

Quite so. Those dratted MIs...

So it's still copper for us....for now.

And what would cause you to change then? Having enough time to think rationally about it?

And who else are you representing when you say "us"? Can that be answered without blatent advertising?

Personally only use copper for neatness and more or less certainty that fittings are not going to jump off weeeks /months later

I haven't had one single Hep2o fitting jump off. Ever. But then I'm fussy, and I inspect every single fitting with my eyes before fitting it with my hands. I've only ever found one fault though (on a grab ring).

how long are the O rings going to last.

I presume that you asked the manufacturer that question before making your informed decision about using plastic? No?

I have heard too many stories of failing joints and floods to trust it, mate has had 3 joints go under boards in a brand new house in less than a year.

Yup - we've all got tales to tell of horrendous leaks and consequent damage, but it's funny (not) that when copper leaks it's the fault of the installer (unflushed flux etc.) and yet when plastic/pushfit leaks it's the fault of the manufacturer.

As for prices we have put total cost of the job up accordingly. Also collectively managed to get local plumbcentre to drop price of 15mm from the £1.90`s a metre it reached last month back down to £1.50 and 22mm accordingly, by taking business elsewhere and letting them know why. Still dearer than PTS at £1.35 but more convienent for us. 62p a metre seems so long ago.

Er, what has price got to do with determining whether or not a particular material or component is the right part for the job?

Main problems with plastic pipe is it does look un-pro', no matter what anyone says.

I was told by an old plumber that the customer is paying for a pro' pipe fitter. They don't want to look at the job and think I could've done that!

Too true. There are probably just as many narrow-minded customers as there are narrow-minded plumbers.

Also plastic is not rodent proof. I've been to 2 houses now with mice/rats eating thru the pipe.

This is the best (or only) argument that I've heard yet against the use of plastic. I'd be interested to know whether rodent attack causes more leaks on plastic than corrosion and erosion causes on copper. Does anyone know?

Lastly some of the cheaper pipe is not of the barrier type. Use this on your heating system and watch your combi pressure!

Or follow the MIs and don't use it on your heating system.

I bet if they had the tinternet 40 years ago then we'd be having the same debate with copper v's lead pipe.

An astute observation.

As for the plastic fitting "jumping off", try pressure testing one. We connected one via a compression fitting to a bucket pump. Pumped it up to a huge pressure and guess what let go first? That's right the compression fitting.

You can easily increase the pressure that a compression fitting with withstand by crimping the olive onto the pipe. And I don't mean murdering it such that the pipe is severely necked, I mean just enough so that the olive isn't held on merely by friction.

 

[ollski]

Here we go again ......

 

[Softus]

I am impressed that so many people here agree with me that copper is the choice for a professional installation where quality comes first before cost and ease of fitting.

You're very easily impressed then.

Unfortunately all that Softus can do is call me a "pompous burke" because I prefer to do the best job with the best materials.

Oh, trust me - I can do much more than that!

I called you a burke because of your demonstrably stupid narrow-mindedness. And the reason I called you pompous is because you present your stupidity as professionalism. Plastic has been around for 30 years, has improved vastly over that period, and Hepworth currently warrant their products for 50 years. How much copper have you seen of that age, that isn't paper thin and/or pinholed as if it were a shower head?

Part of being "professional" is to be polite. Rudeness like that is just another public demonstration that Softus is not very professional.

According to "The Rules of Agile", maybe I'm rude, but I see it as merely being factually correct and putting things bluntly, which, where you're concerned, is more of a sport than a crime.