Primatic cylinders

A new combi is the best solution all around here. This primatic is fed via gravity primaries. The boiler will be an old inefficient model. New combis are greatly more efficient. Modern high flow combis can match any gravity "combination cylinder" system in water delivery in a normal domestic home. In fact it improves on it as eliminates the need for shower pumps.

This boiler, the NCB-40LDWE model, has a highly impressive DHW performance, even a 10:1 burner turndown rate. Just 4kW can be pumped into a CH system. At £922.80 Inc VAT (even less than the £1,200 for a primatic combination cylinder). A no brainer.

ncb-spec-1.jpg
 
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This boiler, the NCB-40LDWE model, has a highly impressive DHW performance, even a 10:1 burner turndown rate. Just 4kW can be pumped into a CH system. At £922.80 Inc VAT (even less than the £1,200 for a primatic combination cylinder). A no brainer.

Is this no brainer and complicated-looking boiler likely to still be working in 30 years like the Primatic will? Or will it need replacing after a decade like most condensers?

And will spares still be freely available for it?

Just wondering...
 
The comparison was between a combi and a heat only with hot water cylinder.

Impressive data sheet but doesn't mention whether efficiency for DHW is for one long draw or for several short draws. ( heat wasted between draws )
 
Is this no brainer and complicated-looking boiler likely to still be working in 30 years like the Primatic will? Or will it need replacing after a decade like most condensers?

And will spares still be freely available for it?

Just wondering...
They are on sale in the UK and have been for about 4 to 5 years. They are also the biggest makers in the world, being big in the USA and Russia, which are both massive markets. They are very well specced, and well made using stainless steel. Self cleaning, there is no need to clean the Heat X for 5 years, the USA do it every 10. With high flowrate models being very well priced. Service organisation is in place. Available from national outlet Plumbase, and others.

They even have a touch screen display. The flue lengths run up to 110m using 3 inch cheap plastic drain pipe, or a co-axial flue - the same used by Ideal. When using extended flues they are the business. They also do a system boiler as well.

With this boiler and the ATAGs (very expensive), if the mains water is fine, it makes cylinders in the vast majority of UK homes totally redundant. Also look at the small size of it!!

 
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Using Co-axial for an equivalent flue length of 110 metres? Please refrain from advising on topics you clearly know nothing about.

Wow.
Would any adjustments to combustion be required when utilising these excessive flue lengths?
If so please explain why these adjustments are required.
10:1 turndown ratio? Can’t recal where it states this in the manufacturer’s literature, certainly not a 10:1 turndown ratio for most models if any.
You don’t even fit these boilers or any for that matter so what experience do you actually have?
It is clear you haven't fitted one. Leave the thinking to the engineers. Just do as they say.
 
Dannyboy, Navien are going to wipe Intergas from the market. Strangle them at birth.
 
It is clear you haven't fitted one. Leave the thinking to the engineers. Just do as they say.
So a co-axial installed on an equivalent length of 110 metres?
It’s clear you haven’t fitted a Navian let alone any other boiler.
You haven’t a clue what you are waffling on about, give it up as you’re clearly an embarrasment to yourself let alone Navian.
 
Factor in the cost of altering the CH system to plumb in any new Combi, and all the additional works that requires, then find the existing system doesn't take to being pressurised, so additional cost there to replace leaking or failed components, condensate drainage, flue, (especially if existing system has a back boiler), and anything else you cannot possibly determine without seeing the job, now what's the 'no brainer'?
 
I have learned from past experience that you are best to keep the system as near as the existing when replacing unless the customer states an interest in converting, then you can discuss with them the pros and cons of it.

For one the existing boiler is obviously a heat only, and is far smaller than your standard combi boiler and would not fit in the existing space, this then means resituating the boiler elsewhere, getting your feeds moved and finding somewhere to run your condensate

Like I said previously I would have been interested in putting in an indirect unvented unit but limitations regarding the PRV and also the fact that I would need to alter the pipework even then to probably accomodate the existing boiler to have the unvented to run sufficiently, because Im not sure if you could run an unvented off of convection as these systems are usually pumped and controlled with motorised valves (another addition that would be required while I'm ripping the floors up, for what seems like a convoluted solution)

I could go through all that and possibly convince the customer that it's the way to go (though I would probably be working for British gas then) and while I'm going through all this work they would probably be scratching theirs heads thinking "surely he could have just kept the system the same and just replaced the cylinder"? And when I have said "oh no you can't get the same cylinder as what's in, they don't exist anymore" that's when customer jumps onto the internet and finds one and then suspects you are ripping the a**e out of the job.

At the end of the day if you keep the system the it is, your not going to confuse abyone. They're happy because they know how to work it and also because IT WORKS. I'm not opposed to converting systems but in this case best to leave well alone. The system is so old, that pressurising the pipework could be a bad move in itself as someone stated previously

To explain in more detail, when the boiler heats the water inside it, the water expands do it's density becomes a little lower than the slightly cooler water in the pipework above. Put another way, the water at the top of the system becomes heavier than the water below so the cooler, heavier water falls down the return pipe into the boiler, and the hotter lighter water rises up the flow pipe to the cylinder heat exchanger, where it gives up its heat, cools and flows back down the return pipe to the boiler. It gets re-heated and the sequence continues until the cylinder reaches boiler temp and equilibrium is achieved. Circulation then stops.

As you can imagine, the motive forces moving the water are microscopic so large pipes are needed. 28mm copper is considered the minimum.

Thanks very much for your explanation, when you had said convection previously I was thinking that it was along those lines but then thought bloody hell it must takes ages to heat haha which would explain why it would benefit from larger pipework, thanks again for the help and explanation. Another thing learned
 
In this case a high performance combi must be assessed to give value to the customer who will be ignorant of these matters, instead of running in and running out. The customer is going spend a lot to remain still stuck with an antiquated CH/water system, when with some extra spending (not much in comparison) he has a state-of-the-art system.

A professional responsible attitude must be maintained and applied.
 
So you’ve now decided to back-peddle after stating a co-axial flue system can be used in order to achieve the maximum permitted equivalent flue length of 110m?
It’s in black and white for all to see.
Yes it was YOU who stated it.
You were obviously confused and somewhat mistaken thinking the dual-duct along with the the co-axial are one of the same.
It’s these constant school boy errors of yours that trip you up.
 

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