Private water DIY help needed

[middleofafield]

I'm not a first time poster here, but it's been a while and I can't find the correct login details!

I'm in Scotland in a rural property and have a well water feed. Finding a plumber here is next to impossible - seriously. So I'm left with no alternative than to attempt a much needed revamp of our well water supply. I've had a few properties like this, so I'm used to the system needed, but other than changing the media and UV bulb this is going to be a challenge for my basic plumbing experience. Rather than me going into too much detail from the start, is there anyone here who may be able to offer advice? I know this is an area where I may find it hard to find someone with experience as a quick search on the web highlights.

Thanks

 

[Madrab]

Depends on what it is you need to do? Whilst only ever worked on one property that was well fed and that was only maintaining a system already there, the rules and approach are relatively straightforward. An update may be needed from Scottish Water as to what you are allowed to draw and then it's just down to mechanics.

Normal utilisation would be a pump, filter (incorporating UV) and in most cases an accumulator/tank.

 

[middleofafield]

Thanks for the reply Rob.

So the deal at the moment is an odd setup. We moved in last year to find the well water was sent through a filter, then a ph correction and then through the UV but then sent to the holding tank where is was free to pick up anything that found it's way into it! The outlet is then split: Hot via the cylinder to a pump along with a cold feed. This gives us pressure for H/C to showers and upstairs bathroom. The other feed, both hot and cold, is gravity downstairs which is really poor.

So my plan:

Have the well water sent direct to holding tank. Then the cold is split, one fed through the filters to the existing pump along with the existing hot feed, the other to a new pump along with the old gravity hot feed so I have full pressure downstairs.

So my question is more about if that sounds logical, and rather than getting a new pump, would the existing pump cope with adding the other feeds instead of getting a new pump?

The only reason I mention a second pump is that of all the plumbers that did turn up (and not get back to me), the only one that came up with a solution was a company called Filpumps who corner the market here with prices to match. They mentioned a similar setup, but said a second pump would be needed. I presume because the existing pump would be inadequate for the whole house as it's only 1.5 bar - see pics. But why not just replace the old pump if this is the case I wonder?

If a single replacement whole house pump would do the trick, any recommendations? I don't want too much pressure as all the piping on the gravity fed has not had pressure before, so this is a concern.

Sorry to go on, but just having someone else to bounce off is really appreciated. So thankyou.

Edit to add, we have three bathrooms and four toilets in total.

 

[Madrab]

OK, firstly, a big urban myth is that a cold water storage cistern can't deliver Wholesome water, it actually should be installed in such a way where it can quite easily. The problem is that no-one looks after their cisterns properly. They should be (loosely) sealed, insulated to hold the water below a certain temp, piped in such a way that the water is always being recycled and therefore wholesome. Absolutely no reason a well looked after cistern couldn't be used.

I wouldn't do 1) quite simply because you could be creating a breading ground for anything that may be in the untreated well water. You want to treat anything that is subsequently to be stored for use.

PH correction - where is Scotland are you and how far off neutral is it? North East if Filpumps is the main resource I would guess? You may have quite hard water too then?

What lifting pump is in the well and is that delivery suitable? What size of storage?

Whole house pumps, then you can't do much better that an ST Monsoon, size would be determined by what it may have to feed dynamically. Given the number of bathrooms and potential showers/bath that could run at the same time then a 3bar setup would probably be needed.

 

[middleofafield]

Cheers Rob, I may not have been clear. The water would be stored in the tanks direct from the well, then when demanded, would go through the filters including the UV cleaning any bugs, so the UV is the last treatment before the taps. I take your idea about correctly insulating the storage tanks including having a good lid - which mine currently do not have! It would be an easier option for sure, but I have no way of finding out about circulation of fresh water. It's a two tank system, so it would take a while to run through - see pics attached.

The well pump is under the floor downstairs which pumps plenty into the loft area.

It is NE Scotland - Aberdeenshire, but the water isn't too hard. Nobody has softeners round this area.

As I say, it's the UV treatment that concerns me as this should really be the last line of defence before the taps as far as I understand.

Thanks for all your time and advice, much appreciated.

 

[SimonH2]

Not an expert by any means ...
If it were me, I'd be looking to keep the lift pump and filter arrangement as is. As Madrab says, seal the header tank(s) so the only ventilation is via a filter to stop "things" getting in, and insulate them well so that a) they don't freeze in winter, and b) they don't warm up when the roof is hot in summer (I'm sure that happens even in Aberdeenshire ) - it looks like the roof itself isn't insulated so the loft will get cold and hot with the weather. If they are "cruddy" now, then a good clean would be in order.
I'm thinking that your lift pump may be relatively low flow rate, and putting the higher flow rates, and in particular the "lots or nothing" regime through a filter would mean a bigger filter to cope with the max flow and poor utilisation when it's sat idle. Again, I'm guessing that if you (for example) fill the bath, the lift pump will take a while to refill the header tanks.

In terms of making sure you have through flow, make sure your inlet and outlet are at opposite ends, such that water flows through one tank, into the other, and then to the house. If supply and demand were on one tank, then the other would go up and down a bit, but the water would not get regular changes.

Then, how to get good pressure in the house.
I see two options :
1) Keep the existing open vent DHW cylinder and add pumps downstream as required. That's really just a matter of putting pump(s) inline as required. Basically replicate what's already there for the other outlets. That's the quick, and cheapest option.
2) Make the whole system pressurised. So that means a single booster pump, and an accumulator to give you some pressure stability - I would imagine that without an accumulator you could have the pump doing interesting stop-start dances on very low flow rates or if there's a leak (e.g. dripping tap). Booster setups are far from uncommon, in some areas they are used because the mains pressure is low - I vaguely recall a thread (might have been in here) where someone in London didn't get water to the 3rd floor without one. Basic setup is a break tank (your header tanks but with a ballcock from the mains), then a pump and accumulator setup to provide pressure to the property.

And then you have two further choices :
2a) Unvented hot water cylinder
2b) Thermal store

How is your heating done ? Personally I am a bit of a fan of thermal stores (the passive type with coil rather than pump with heat exchanger), but they don't seem popular with most professionals in here, and aren't the best option everywhere. But they give you mains (or in your case, pump) pressure without the cylinder itself being pressurised, and also provide a big neutral point where you can connect all heat sources and loads such that they don't fight each other.

 

[middleofafield]

Thanks for your input Simon, really appreciate the time and thought that you gave cheers!

With both of your opinions coming at the same angle, I may well now concentrate of sealing and insulating the existing setup. In truth, we've been here a year and have come to no harm. The cold water temperature last summer was tepid to warm (we actually hit 30C believe it or not!), but now it's refreshingly cold to say the least! But as I say, we are all stiff alive. And there was a clear water test done which is legally necessary before we moved in anyway.

For simplicity, your first options would be the way I would go but a question; Would you suggest I exchange the pump I already have for pressured hot and cold for something like the Monsoon pump Madrab suggested which would enable whole house pressure - with me teeing in the existing gravity feeds off it, or perhaps a smaller pump inline of the gravity H/C and keep the existing? If that makes sense.

 

[Diver Fred]

1.5 bar of pressure is 15Metres head. I'd have thought that would be enough. I think you probably need a higher flow rate water pump.

Grandparents Bungalow was built off mains water; plumbed with 10,000 gallon rainwater storage. Had a complex pumping system - from tank to (manual) pump inside house, out to filter bed (sand, charcoal) back inside house through the second half of pump to storage tanks in the roof. Gravity fed to taps, about 5meter of head, hot, cold and drinking water. When bungalow was put on mains water (1957) the plumbing system pipes all had to be replaced.

 

[Madrab]

OK not wanting to contradict you but the treatment of the water should always happen before it is stored. When water is stored especially indoors in a potentially warmer space, then any contaminants have the capacity to multiply and concentrate, making the purification a whole lot harder and creating a perfect breading ground.

All it needs is a proper testing regime to ensure the stored water is PH neutral and free from contaminants.

The cisterns would need cleaned once a year, there are processes using chemicals to ensure it stays nice and clean.

That tandem tank setup doesn't look quite right given where the communication pipe looks to be so high up but not seeing the whole set up then it's difficult to be sure. The norm would be fill the first cistern, large comm pipe is at the bottom and the downstream cold feeds are all at the far end of the 2nd cistern. That ensure a constant flow through the whole storage. They should also be insulated. Also if it's an open vent HW then the vent should be taken up and out and not back up and over into the storage.

Once it comes to designing the downstream setup then that would normally follow any normal gravity design approach.

 

[middleofafield]

Contradict away Rob. I'm no expert for sure. But I do know Filpumps would always go well to storage, then filter to house which is what they did for me on a new installation a few years ago at a different house, and were shocked to see this setup. The correct UV should zap pretty much anything that passed through I would have thought. But to my brain, what you say does make sense. I will be going along with your suggestions re the tank (which is setup as you recommend by the way - there are just a few redundant pipes and the main connections are the other side.)

So some insulation and a good lid is in order if I can track the correct size down.

Many thanks to all for your ideas!

 

[Madrab]

were shocked to see this setup

I don't see why, the setup I looked after was exactly that albeit they had a pumped accumulator as their storage vessel which was sealed and pressurised.

After looking at typical well/bore hole setups to storage, it seems they can follow both designs, either pre or post storage processing. I'm not saying that Filipumps approach isn't correct as they are obviously experts in their field but it does seem that both approaches are just as appropriate.

That being said with my water regs and design head on and how I would look at it if I was to set a system like that up, I would want any internally stored water to be processed rather than raw, that being said I guess it would all depend on the tests performed on the raw well water just to understand to what level of contamination, if any, there would be in the ground water.

Have those tests been performed and how does the report look?

 

[middleofafield]

I guess as you say there is no right or wrong as long as the correct procedure is followed for either setup. But I'm following your advice. I'll also add a fly/rodent screen to my tanks for peace of mind.

On another note, I just spent the entire afternoon doing what should have been an easy job changing the ph media. Turns out I doubt it's ever been changed since installation 10 years ago, just topped up. I almost needed a pneumatic drill to break up the old stuff in the vessel - what a job!

Again, thanks for all your help.

 

[Madrab]

Talking about PH netraliser, have you checked the PH of the groundwater, get the good old litmus out.

Most are acidic neutalisers using CC to raise the PH, as it tends to be more acidic but I'd run a test just to see. Also if the groundwater is acidic then an even stronger case for pre-storage processing as you don't want acidic water running through all that nice expensive pump and treatment hardware.

 

[middleofafield]

Also if the groundwater is acidic then an even stronger case for pre-storage processing as you don't want acidic water running through all that nice expensive pump and treatment hardware.

Very good point!