Problem with Kitchen Electrics ...

[nickp34]

Last year the house underwent a full refurbishment and the whole house was rewired. Passed all the tests and we got an electrical certificate - Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate DCM2.

In the kitchen they installed the panel in the picture below for the appliances. There is a switch and fuse holder for each appliance. Behind each appliance is a connection plate and the appliances are hard wired to that plate (instead of a plug and socket).

Picture: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r73/nickp8/XL800723.jpg

Now the problem is every few months the washing machine and dishwasher lose power. They wont switch on. The other appliances (fridge, tumble dryer, extractor fan) still work and the CU does not trip. The fuses on the panel in the picture are also ok and have not blown. Also it is always these two appliances that lose power. When testing the connection plate behind the appliance there is still power on the live but appliance wont switch on. If you put a 3 pin plug on the end of the cable and plug into a socket the appliance works fine.

This has happened two times before and we had to get the electrician who done the wiring back. They got it working again and we finally thought the problem was fixed the last time but it has happened again on Sunday night!

This is the third time since the work was completed last September. We cant keep paying for an electrician to keep coming out every few months. I need the problem sorted once and for all.

The electrician who did the wiring cant come till next week. I am thinking of calling someone else in to have a look and to get an independant view on what the problem is.

Is this something that should have been picked up when the electrics were tested and before the certificate was issued?

Anyone have any ideas as to what can be causing this? Can it be a neutral fault?

Thanks.

 

[nickp34]

No one has any idea on what can cause the problem above?

 

[plugwash]

the first step is check all connections are solid, then draw a diagram of all the wiring so you can see any single points of failure that would affect the washing machine and dishwasher but not anything else.

 

[viewer]

Yes, could be a loose/poor neutral connection. You'll have to turn it all off and have a look inside the wall connection plates. If these are OK look for the next common connection (probably with the switches) and check continuity.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Per above, probably a loose connection inside that switch/fuse plate, depands on how it is wired.

No one has any idea on what can cause the problem above?

Please dont get pushy if you dont get an instant reply. Most of us who contribute are working for a living. I would be laying some armoured cable in a garden today if it wasn't monsoon day here....

 

[nickp34]

Thanks for the replies. Didnt mean to be pushy.

Had an NICEIC approved electrician round earlier. He tested everything and said the wiring is fine.

He says the problem was caused due to them screwing through the pvc sheath on the wire when connecting the appliance on the connection plate. They had done it on the live for the dishwasher and the neutral on the washing machine. Does this sound right?

I cant beleive they did this three times before without realising?

 

[bernardgreen]

Sounds like the installer tightened the screw in the terminal down on the insulation of the wire and not the copper conductor of the wire.

Just chance that the conductor happened to be tpouching part of the terminal when it should have been clamped by the screw.

 

[Space cat]

I cant beleive they did this three times before without realising?

The question to ask is this: Can you believe that somebody would do it even once? Unfortunately the answer is yes - and somebody who can do it once is liable to keep on doing it.

Unfortunately yours was an intermittent fault and those are absolute pigs to sort out. I know because I've got three on the go right now. You can't fix it if it's not broken.

This doesn't alter the fact that the original wiring was faulty. You shouldn't have been paying this 'somebody' to keep coming back and not even putting it right!

 

[nickp34]

Dishwasher and washing machine both gone off again.

I really need some advice on what to do here.

 

[Space cat]

Is there any way you can swap the washing machine and tumble drier between outlets? (Check their fuses first but I would expect them to be the same.) This will tell you whether the fault is in the wiring or the washing machine.

 

[nickp34]

The tumble dryer is next to the dish washer so the dish washer could be connected to the tumble dryer connection to test it.

It definately is a wiring fault as the dish washer and washing machine ran fine since Sunday when we put a 3 pin plug on the end of the cable used it plugged into a normal socket until the electrician came on Tuesday and reconnected it back on to the connection plate.

As I said above the tumble dryer is next to the dish washer. The washing machine close to the fridge.

If the fault is with the wiring (it looks that way), the wiring cant be changed now as its buried under the floor and in the walls, and we dont want to rip out a new kitchen. We will have to stop using those two connections.

We will need to find another way to power those two appliances. Would the following be okay?

Behind the fridge is a single gang socket. So I could just put in a double gang extension lead and plug in both the fridge and washing machine?

Behind the tumble dryer is a connection plate. Now I know I cant just wire both the tumble dryer and dish washer to this connection plate as each appliance will need to be individually fused. So what is the best way to connect both of them to this one connection plate?

I wouldnt be able to put in a single gang socket and plug in a dual gang extension as the protuding plug from the socket would stop the tumble dryer from going back in its position fully.

Is there a such thing as a dual gang fused spur with two 13amp fused connections and outlets?

 

[Space cat]

Behind the tumble dryer is a connection plate. Now I know I cant just wire both the tumble dryer and dish washer to this connection plate as each appliance will need to be individually fused. So what is the best way to connect both of them to this one connection plate?

No matter how you try, you'd be hanging two juice guzzlers on the same fuse in the switch panel. It's odds on that the two heating elements would overload it. Let's hope it doesn't come to that!

It's probable that the tumble dryer and dish washer are on the same size fuses (which you can check) so these two are good candidates for a swap. As I said earlier, intermittent faults are an absolute pig. It's quite possible that the mere act of pulling out the dish washer to put a plug on it cleared the fault. It might not be a prime suspect but you really need to eliminate it from your enquiries. Swapping the washing machine and fridge may also be possible if their supply cables and fuses are the same. You can check this at the switch panel.

The other thing you can do, though NOT at the same time, is swap cables between switches. All switches are equal so any outgoing cables of the same size and on identical fuses can be freely swapped. This will allow you to eliminate switch panel faults.

There is always a chance that your problem is buried in a cable somewhere but we'll burn that bridge when we come to it. Unless you've checked every single one, your prime suspects are still the connections - followed by the switches and the fuse holders. It's obvious that the first installer bodged the job. The second electrician found two bad connections - which tallied nicely with the two faults - and fixed them, whereupon your appliances came back to life.

Job done? Unfortunately it doesn't work like that; not with intermittents. Of course you would expect any half decent electrician to check all the other connections for similar faults. Expect nothing! Check them all - and don't forget the ones on the supply side of the switches.

 

[nickp34]

Thanks spacecat.

I was surprised the electrician didnt check the switch panel on Tuesday but he had identified two faults, corrected them and the appliances were working so I didnt say anything. Also it was coming up to the end of the hour and I didnt want it going into a 2nd hour unecessarily!

I called him up this morning to let him know it had happened again and he kindly came round earlier to have a look again. While he was unscrewing the switch panel the dish washer and washing machine power came back on. He said there are no lose connections on the switch panel but he thinks the switches for them two appliances are faulty and should be changed. He hasnt seen the actual panel they have installed before so he says to contact the electrician who did the work originally and to get them to change the two switches.

Should the original electrician replace them two switches free of charge? I would think the panel and switches have some kind of warranty.

Thanks.

 

[Space cat]

Should the original electrician replace them two switches free of charge?

My comments on the first electrician would be deleted by the mods. Suffice to say that if he worked here he'd be lucky not to be walking around with a hook stick poking out of his rear end!!!

The second one wasn't exactly on the ball either, unless you were dropping hints like "everything's OK now so here's your hat" You paid for a job that wasn't done properly. You've now paid extra to, hopefully, get what you've already paid for. This sounds like a case for the small claims court but I'm no expert on legal matters. Try your local CAB.

 

[nickp34]

No I wasnt rushing the 2nd electrician or trying to get him out asap. He didnt charge to come back today.

The original electrician was hired by the builder. The builder had previously done refurbishments on our relatives houses and the same electrician did the work for him.

When the 2nd electrician came I showed him the Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate DCM2. He said that the original electrician was not registered with the NICEIC which is why the certificate he gave us was green and not red like the one he would issue as he was NICEIC approved. He did say though that their work was very good, tidy and the CU and wiring was all done correctly (apart from the appliance connection to the connection plate!).

I have health problems and am at the hospital every other day for treatment so have enough going on at the moment. I just want the problem sorted asap. I dont really want to be taking legal action etc.

Any good sparkies on here who work in West London that want to come and sort this out for me?