Problem with wooden flooring fixed over underfloor heating.

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Wooden floor on a water underfloor heating system, big problem! This floor was laid about four years ago and signs of movement started in the first year. It's an 18mm thick floor board made up of 9mm MDF and topped with 9mm natural oak both of which were stuck together. The boards were stuck down directly onto the cement screed

The top 9mm oak is now cupping up to 20mm in places leaving the MDF still intact. Question is, is this type of flooring "fit for purpose" ie underfloor heating?

This was a new build and the builder doesn't want to know. We cant find out what the name of company is that produced it. Has anybody seen it before?
 
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Hi
When you say MDF do you really mean plywood? Plywood has layers of real wood glued together at right angles, MDF is basically compressed cardboard.

A 9 mm ply with a 9mm oak should be suitable for underfloor heating if it was MDF then it wouldn't be at all.

Photo's would be helpful so i can see whats going on.
 
Thanks for your reply's, just to confirm that yes it is exactly as I explained the flooring is 9mm MDF topped with 9mm oak (looks like European oak I've been told)
I really need to try and find out who the manufacturer was as the builder will not come up with this information.
I will get some photographs asap. As you can imagine it's going to cost thousands of pounds to replace this floor so I need some definite conformation that this type of flooring was not "fit for purpose" so as to build up a case. At the moment they are blaming the humidity and they say this could only be over come by using some kind of humidity control or air conditioning!!
This is a brand new house (4yrs) I don't like it hot so the house is at a low stable temperature. The builder says that it was installed correctly although it has been pointed out that there is wood filler in many of the joints which indicates that it was not laid properly. My problem is that I haven't got a clue, we retired but my husband died soon after moving in and I feel that I am being pushed around because I'm a woman and I'm not going to be if I can help it.
PLEASE HELP.
 
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Don't worry we will help you get to the bottom of this and get you to a happy out come for you not the builder. We need to build up a really good case and then start to ratchet up the pressure on the builder.

I have never seen an oak flooring glued to an MDF sheet and this coupled with the fact that the builder is not giving you the supplier seems funny to me.

Were you in the house when the flooring was installed or can you remember anything about the floor being put down if you were visiting your soon to be new house?

How have you been conversing with the builder, telephone or letters?

Fitting a hardwood floor over underfloor heating is something best left to professional hardwood flooring installers not builders who think they can do it!

If it is MDF under the solid oak that is the problem, wood expands and contracts with changes in humidity. Being over underfloor heating causes the wood to shrink back in summer more than usual. This is why an engineered wood floor is used (plywood with the decorative wood stuck to the top). as it is strong enough to reduce this expansion and contraction. MDF is not strong enough to stop this movement and will end up with the oak coming unstuck of the MDF which is what i think you are describing!


Howard
 
The other issue is temperature control of the underfloor heating pipes.
 
Thank you Howard for taking an interest in my problem.

Because this was a new house I thought that the NHBC would help, I made a claim (June 2010) and had a visit from both the builder (Unique Homes) and the NHBC claims investigator together. The NHBC said in part of his report to me :-

The builder acknowledged that the home owner first raised this issue with him within the first two years when there was some cupping of the floor in the hall.
He went on:- The floor would appear to have been installed correctly and is not thought that the original installation is related to the cupping now occurring Being a natural wood floor, it is much more susceptible to movement than say a manufactured product,

(but this is a manufactured product?) His sum up was :-

The installation of the floor is deemed to comply with the NHBC Technical Requirements. The builder is not required to carry out work in relation to this item. Controlling the internal environment may result in the cupping improving on its own, otherwise it may be unavoidable and considered a characteristic of the floor. Any cupped edges could be sanded if desired, but this may not be desirable as could expose the tongue and groove. Also, there may be a difference in wood colour in the sanded area and of course cupping could appear elsewhere. END
 
FORGOT TO SAY THAT THERE ARE SOME PHOTOS IN MY DIYnot ALBUM BUT i,M NOT SURE HOW YOU GET THEM. THIS IS A NEW ONE THAT I HAVE JUST SET UP AND NOT QUITE SURE HOW IT WORKS YET.
MARY




Thank you Howard for taking an interest in my problem.

Because this was a new house I thought that the NHBC would help, I made a claim (June 2010) and had a visit from both the builder (Unique Homes) and the NHBC claims investigator together. The NHBC said in part of his report to me :-

The builder acknowledged that the home owner first raised this issue with him within the first two years when there was some cupping of the floor in the hall.
He went on:- The floor would appear to have been installed correctly and is not thought that the original installation is related to the cupping now occurring Being a natural wood floor, it is much more susceptible to movement than say a manufactured product,

(but this is a manufactured product?) His sum up was :-

The installation of the floor is deemed to comply with the NHBC Technical Requirements. The builder is not required to carry out work in relation to this item. Controlling the internal environment may result in the cupping improving on its own, otherwise it may be unavoidable and considered a characteristic of the floor. Any cupped edges could be sanded if desired, but this may not be desirable as could expose the tongue and groove. Also, there may be a difference in wood colour in the sanded area and of course cupping could appear elsewhere. END
 
Thank you "FLAMEPORT" and "MYSTERYMAN" for your input, if you are still following the messages I would be grateful for any information on this subject and product.
MARY
 
NHBC said " could expose the tongue and groove". Looking at the photo's I cannot see any evidence of a tongue & groove. If I am correct then its not surprising that its lifting.
 
I would never consider this floor for underfloor heating what so ever in a glue down installation. You are sure this is a glue down floor no underlay? I just cant see evidence of the glue in the last photo, you can clearly see the layer of MDF still stuck to the back of the Oak board though!

Now i suspect that the builder is withholding the wood supplier as he has already (when you started to have problems) asked his supplier if this flooring is suitable to be glued down over underfloor heating. I don't believe there is a supplier out there that would recommend this but the world never ceases to amaze me!

There is an independent flooring expert for such cases called Sid Bourne, he is not cheap but the builder would end up paying his costs. It may be a good idea to phone Sid up and discuss this situation. I'm sure he would want to come and do a site visit straight away (not much need with what you can tell him) and start racking up his costs. If you want to give the builder the chance to do the right thing with out getting Sid involved straight away say this to Sid you may be able to get some free advise on the promise that if it goes to court you will use him.

I think a good point of call is to contact the NHBC and the builder by letter (recorded delivery shows your serious) maybe after a phone call.
Query this report and ask the questions, who is the person who has written it and what is his experience with wood flooring? The guy clearly does not have a clue what he is talking about.
I would ask for a copy of the NHBC Technical Requirements for fitting wood flooring over underfloor heating whilst your at it, may be useful!
Say that you have rung every supplier that you can find who supplies this type of flooring and non recommend it to be fitted in this way (slight bluff but you could do this if you want), and ask if this is why the builder will not tell me the supplier?
Say that you want the full cost of a replacement floor and costs for removal of the old floor stating that if they want further costs you would like to employ Sid Bourne who you have already contacted and he is very keen on the case but you are giving them the opportunity to do the right thing!

Quite sure you would get a response
 
On a side note, an engineered board with a decent amount of ply is nearly impossible to get to cup, i have had one sat in a bucket of water for weeks without any expansion of the board. In a house in normal living conditions they would never cup, on MDF i suspect they would!
 
Thank you Howard you have given me plenty to think about and a little peace of mind as i am getting a positive feed back from you. I know its still going to be a battle. The name of the NHBC guy who did the report was a Mr P Lavis, claims investigator along with the buider Julian Pidgeon from Bishops Lydyard the claim was registered 17-6-2010.
Again thanks a million
Mary
 
That must be horrible to live with.

Just a thought, but did you buy this as a new house directly from the developer ?
If so then you have powerful rights under the Sale of Goods and Services 1982 - this amends the earlier 1979 act, and is itself amended by The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...complain-to-companies/consumer-law-a-summary/


One option is to go to Trading Standards, though these days you have to go through a call centre where I consider them to be handing out completely useless advice - you aren't allowed to contact your local office directly it seems. At least that was the case last time I tried.

Alternatively ...


Now, whether the rest of this post is helpful does rather depend on your appetite for "having a go" ...

The key terms are that goods must be fit for the purpose they were sold, and must be reasonably durable. Unless the seller can show that you have done something to cause the problem (for example letting excessive amounts of water be spilled on the floor, which I assume you haven't) then it would be very hard to claim that the floor in your pictures is either fit for purpose or has been reasonably durable.
The question to consider is "how much will it cost to put right ?" I say this because the builder has already been given the opportunity to put it right but has refused - that rather suggests that it may have to "get legal" before he will (or for you to get cash from him to pay for it to be done properly). If the claim doesn't exceed £5,000 then it can go through the "small claims court" (I think it's correct name is the "small claims track of the county court") which is designed to be easy and simple for people to use. Even if the cost would be over £5k, it may be worth only asking for £5k as the procedure (and potential costs) change considerably above that.

The key thing would be that you'd need some evidence that there was a fault and that it wasn't your fault. Normally I'd say that your photos would be enough, but you'd need to counter the opinion of the NHBC report which says it's OK.

It may be worth sending your photos to Sid Bourne (never heard of him myself (not surprising as I work in IT, not building), but the others seem to rate him) and see if you can get an opinion from him. He may be prepared to offer a preliminary opinion based on the photos for a modest fee, as well as giving you a cost to come and visit the house to see for himself. If it goes to court, then he would almost certainly need to do so before giving evidence.
Armed with that, I'd be tempted to download the court forms, fill them in, but don't send them in yet. Send copies of them, and the opinion from Sid Bourne, and a covering letter stating that :
a) You consider the floor to be unfit for purpose and not reasonably durable, as required by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
b) You have an opinion from an expert supporting this view.
c) You expect him to put the floor right at his own expense, or pay for someone else to do so. Set a reasonable timescale - give him 14 days to reply, and 28 days to complete the work.
d) If he fails to do so, you will instigate proceedings in the County Court.
e) In court, you will ask the judge to compel the builder to disclose the manufacturer of the flooring so that you can contact them.
f) You will also be calling the expert witness and will expect his costs to be met by the builder.
Send the letter recorded delivery so he cannot claim not to have received it - though by law, if you post a letter by Royal Mail, then it is deemed to have been delivered next day if first class, and after 3 days if second class (proof of posting is proof of delivery by law !)

My guess is that the builder will instantly change his tune, or will as soon as he's served court papers. Unless he's a complete idiot he'll realise that unless the manufacturer says the installation method is acceptable then he'll have no defence whatsoever and he will lose the case. He cannot refuse to provide the manufacturer's name if the judge asks for it - otherwise he is in contempt of court and the judge can lock him up ! The fact that he's refused to name the supplier does suggest that he knows the floor wasn't installed according to the instructions and doesn't want you to find this out by getting the installation instructions or an opinion from the manufacturer.

I would suggest that unless you are of a particularly strong constitution then you might want to find someone to help you with all this.

The actual legislation can be found at these links - if you enjoy a dry read !
Sale of Goods Act 1979
Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982
The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
 

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