Proof to support creationism?

[jtaunton]

Back to the original question, the answer is eyes......

We all know how evolution is supposed to work. One Giraffe gets born with a slightly longer neck, has a bit of an advantage, his descendants start to win out until a slightly longer necked giraffe gets thrown up, and so on.

But eyes are very complex - They couldn't just appear out of nowhere, but they couldn't evolve either - The only useful eye is a complete working eye, so there would be no continuum of partial and improving eyes that would give an evolutionary advantage along the way.

I think this is one of the central planks of IDT (creationism in disguise to get round US religious education laws).

 

[AdamW]

Yes, this is their "irreducable complexity" isn't it.

I always wonder if they have ever seen a jellyfish... technically an animal, but only because it doesn't slot into any other of the other kingdoms easily!

Like many other simple "animals" it has no brain (no brain, for chrissakes!), and hence does not have the wit and intellect to process imagery. Yet it has "ocelli", basically the evolutionary precursor to eyes. Photosensitive cells that detect changes in light, but can't form images.

But there are plenty of other animals that have non-ocular photosensitive cells and/or oculli. Many insects have occulli, in addition to their compound eyes. And there are mites that have no eyes and appear to have no evolutional ancestors with eyes either.

 

[Big_Spark]

Creationism is bow locks.

There is no God, there is no omnipitant being, not now or ever.

We were not made by some super intelligent being and is just religious mumbo jumbo by the illinformed...

 

[AdamW]

Well, we can't completely rule god out just yet!

I think we would be losing some aspect of humanity if we just say "Right, there is no ominpotent being, never has been, if you believe so you are ill-informed".

Some believe he exists, some believe he doesn't. I think it would be ignorant for either party to call the other "ill-informed". As a scientist, I like to keep the subjects of science, philosophy and theology totally separate, and I think that there are many who would do well to try this! I should think there are plenty of people who believe in Darwinian evolution AND God.

Is there a god? I really don't know... there isn't conclusive proof either way!

 

[Big_Spark]

Adam, why would we be losing some aspect of humanity by denying a god?

Religion, and Gods, were created by ancient man to explain that which they could not, such as Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Lightning and the weather in general, and most importantly, were life came from.

As our religious beliefs expanded it became a form of social control, the first Politics if you like, and it meant that man now had some social rules to abide by that everyone knew and understood.

Over periods of time the many Gods of a given faith were replaced by the single God faiths we see detailed by the worlds three major religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

In the modern world we have other methods of social control and social cohesion, and whilst we cannot fully explain as aspects of Earthquakes, Volcanism, the weather and life, we are able to understand and explain enough that we do not need to resort to some all powerful being to explain it.

Religion has been a vehicle for conflict for at least 7000 years, whether that is its intention or not is irrelevent, the simple fact is that religious indifference and indictination has caused more human suffering that all deseases in the last 7 millenia.

When we are children, we play childish games and toys, but as adults we put these games and toys away, because we out grow them, sometime we do this reluctantly, mankind must do the same, we are no longer a "child" species or societies, we must put away our childishness and be an adult, and that means giving up our religions and accepting that there is no God, there never was a God and there never will be a God.

 

[AdamW]

You say that religion causes conflict, yet here YOU are the one who is saying "I am right, those who believe in god are wrong" without offering any direction towards proof! In the scientific community we call that arrogance

Embracing science does not oblige one to abandon other beliefs. I studied physics at one of the most respected institutions in the country (many would argue the world). I was lectured by many of the most eminent professors in their respective fields. Yet this did not prevent many of them from abandoning their various religious heritages.

By totally abandoning all notion of theology, one is losing a connection to their ancestors, and is also removing a concept that can be used to explain those mysteries we scientists are yet to find a mathematically-sound proof for. Science is a process of constant improvement and refinement, theology is a legacy.

So, I think you should respect that people have different beliefs. To say that someone who believes what YOU don't believe, is ill-informed, is arrogant.

By the way, I would suggest that 750 million Hindus would place their religion as a greater contender to one of the "major 3 religions" than 13 million Jews!

Edit: not to mention 450 million buddhists too (although some put the figure as high as 1.6 billion, which pushes Islam to third place), or 23 million Sikhs

 

[pna]

We all know how evolution is supposed to work. One Giraffe gets born with a slightly longer neck, has a bit of an advantage, his descendants start to win out until a slightly longer necked giraffe gets thrown up, and so on.

So logically, if we have found evidence for dinosaurs, there should be lots of giraffe skeletons out there with short necks?

 

[Big_Spark]

Adam, why should I offer proof against a God, when no-one ever offers proof FOR a God, they simply accept it blindly..in the common sense world we call it narrow-minded and stupid!!

Anyway, you want proof of Evolution, then I suggest you simply study bacteria and Virii. Virii evolve on timescales humans arte able ot visualise and comprehend, we have seem Influenza and Bird Flu evolve in a human lifetime, TB has evolved to resist antibiotic drugs, as has numerous other infections, and some actively thrive in our super clean environments, such as MRSA.

HIV has evolved from a harmless virus to one that causes serious problems in Humans, Cats and two species of Monkey and great Apes.

What bacteria and Virii do on the short timescale, nature does with all animals on the geological timescale.

To deny this is blindness gone mad.

 

[Richardp]

When I was a young man I was tormented by the existence or otherwise of god, I grew out of it but every now and then its crept back, right now I don't believe in god. but the problem I have is that people through the ages have worshiped him (built huge cathedrals and churches etc)and suddenly we get to a bit in history when we've decided that we had it all wrong and that in fact there is no god, how come we're so much smarter than our ancestors and all those learned people before us ? and how come alot of very clever, educated people believe? this troubles me. some times

 

[Freddie]

When I was a young man I was tormented by the existence or otherwise of god, I grew out of it but every now and then its crept back, right now I don't believe in god. but the problem I have is that people through the ages have worshiped him (built huge cathedrals and churches etc)and suddenly we get to a bit in history when we've decided that we had it all wrong and that in fact there is no god, how come we're so much smarter than our ancestors and all those learned people before us ? and how come alot of very clever, educated people believe? this troubles me. some times

But Richard 9 times out of 10 those churches etc were built with slave labour and blackmail and it was just away of controlling/suppressing the population, where i am is a perfect example, some terrible things went on here right up untill the early 70,s, now the population are dropping it like a hot rock and dont forget the witch finder days in England and Scotland

 

[Big_Spark]

Why do people believe in God today? Simple, they have a need to beleive that when we die it is not the end of it all, that we continue on in some form or another, and to beleive in this requires a belief in a God for the majority of people.

Humans are unique amongst animals, we all know that we will die one day, we know that life is not eternal and this scares the crap out of most people. Many people are scared of living, this is why they sink into substance abuse or have no life, how the hell can they face death if they are unable to face life?

Consequently they beleive in God instead of themselves. Intelligent people are as susceptable to this human frailty as anyone, in some ways more so as they are able to understand a lot of the natural world, and this can be depressing to realise that when you die you are simply dust and bones until such time as even your bones decay and you are gone, forgotten in history, unless you did something to be remembered in history for. People cannot face this stark fact.

 

[Freddie]

Why do people believe in God today? Simple, they have a need to beleive that when we die it is not the end of it all, that we continue on in some form or another, and to beleive in this requires a belief in a God for the majority of people.

Humans are unique amongst animals, we all know that we will die one day, we know that life is not eternal and this scares the rubbish out of most people. Many people are scared of living, this is why they sink into substance abuse or have no life, how the hell can they face death if they are unable to face life?

Consequently they beleive in God instead of themselves. Intelligent people are as susceptable to this human frailty as anyone, in some ways more so as they are able to understand a lot of the natural world, and this can be depressing to realise that when you die you are simply dust and bones until such time as even your bones decay and you are gone, forgotten in history, unless you did something to be remembered in history for. People cannot face this stark fact.

I agree you are nothing but a piece of meat, watch the maggots devour a corpse of a sheep in 2-3 days of high summer then say that there is an after life--you cant the only after life is the flies which hatch from your remains--no fuffy white clouds--no paradise--no 75 virgins oops may have started something here

 

[Big_Spark]

No 75 Virgins...

Well that's in then, I'm beinf preserved in Vinegar, Feck the maggots!!

 

[AdamW]

Adam, why should I offer proof against a God, when no-one ever offers proof FOR a God, they simply accept it blindly..in the common sense world we call it narrow-minded and stupid!!

Anyway, you want proof of Evolution, then I suggest you simply study bacteria and Virii. Virii evolve on timescales humans arte able ot visualise and comprehend, we have seem Influenza and Bird Flu evolve in a human lifetime, TB has evolved to resist antibiotic drugs, as has numerous other infections, and some actively thrive in our super clean environments, such as MRSA.

HIV has evolved from a harmless virus to one that causes serious problems in Humans, Cats and two species of Monkey and great Apes.

What bacteria and Virii do on the short timescale, nature does with all animals on the geological timescale.

To deny this is blindness gone mad.

Firstly, as you will see from my posts, I think anyone who disagrees with evolution is wrong. But, I will not arrogantly tell people that their faith is misplaced simply because I don't share their views. Surely as an amateur astronomer you realise that BEFORE the Big Bang is a mystery we might never solve. This is why philosophers and theoretical physicists can still make good money and attain notoriety in the community!

So, if you feel you have no need to proove there is no god, then you can't go around saying that those who DO believe are wrong. Compassion and empathy, dude. I don't recall anyone ever posting on here "There is a god, anyone who doesn't believe is ill-informed", so respect the beliefs of others.

Secondly, I fail to see what "men" have to do with this... If I recall my schoolboy latin, "virii" is the plural of "man" (hence the word "virile"), so I will assume you meant to say "viruses"

Science is about open-mindedness until conclusive proof or at least strong evidence.

 

[AdamW]

I agree you are nothing but a piece of meat, watch the maggots devour a corpse of a sheep in 2-3 days of high summer then say that there is an after life--you cant the only after life is the flies which hatch from your remains--no fuffy white clouds--no paradise--no 75 virgins oops may have started something here

There have been claims that this is a mistranslation of "white raisins", because they were a rare and sought-after foodstuff in 6th century Arabia.

Although why anyone would die so as to eat 72 raisins...