Pulled from another thread

I noticed a variant of this problem in a newspaper headline today ...

The headline was of the form "Mr A, aged 55, and Miss Y, nearly half his age".
That's getting back to simply being lazy.
Does not 'nearly half his age' actually has no meaning?
Half his age is 27.5, so this really shluld mean that she is a little under 27.5.

However, as one might expect from the fact that this was appearing as a 'headline', that is not what they meant. They actually meant that the difference between their ages is 'nearly' half of his age (i.e. she was a little over 27.5). She is, in fact, 29 !
I'd interpret 'half of his age' as being half of 55 or 27.5 so nearly half of 27.5 is under 27.5.

I don't think there would be boubt about 'a quarter of 100' as being 25 or 'a quarter off 100' as being 75 or would there?
 
Well it seems to have happened with decimate, which was to kill one in ten, now it seems to mean the reverse, to get rid or nine in ten.
Yes, but my point was for John who seems to think it is 'evolution' and a good thing whenever I point out such mistakes.
 
Mmmmm. ... Surely if people know what is really meant then it is alright and could eventually become correct. ... Is that not how it works?
I think you really 'understand' and are just trying to 'get at me' :-) ....

No, that's not 'how it works'. 'Evolution of language' is all very well but it does not extend to violating long-established definitions of units. To say that a gill is half a pint (whereas it's defined as being quarter of a pipe) is no different from saying that a yard is two feet - and neither of those would become 'correct' just because some people started using those units incorrectly!
 
I think in early days the maximum strength one could distil alcohol to was less by a fair way to being 100%, seems they were unaware it was not 100%, so rather than change the rating they gave it another name, think called "Proof"...
As I said, the alcoholic content of spirits used to be expressed as "percentage proof" - proof being the lowest concentratiion of alcohol (about 57%) that would 'burn'. "100% Proof" was therefore an alcohol concentration of about 57%. "110% proof would have been about 63%alcohol etc.
Is that what we call radians, 360 degrees = 2π radians.
Definitely not - there is nothing remotely 'metric' about 2π :-)
It seems easier to work some things out in radians.
Indeed - expressing angles as radians is, mathematically, very useful for many purposes. An angle of 1 radian is the angle subtended at the middle of a circle by a length of its circumference equal to the radius of the circle (because the entire circumference is 2π times the radius).
So why is a pi chart a circle, should in not be a semicircle?
As you've been told, it's a 'pie' chart (as in apple or steak pies), not a 'pi' one.
What I remember is a measure is 1/6th of a gill in England and Wales, and 1/5th of a gill in Scotland.
Indeed, but the size of the gill was (and is) the same in all three countries - the only difference being that the Scots wanted to drink a somewhat larger 'measure' of whiskey than did the English or Welsh!
 
That's getting back to simply being lazy. Does not 'nearly half his age' actually has no meaning?
I would say that, strictly speaking, it does have a meaning - but not the meaning I saw in a newspaper this morning! If 'half his age' is 27.5, then "nearly half his age" surely means 'a little less than 27.5", doesn't it?
I'd interpret 'half of his age' as being half of 55 or 27.5 so nearly half of 27.5 is under 27.5.
Exactly - as I wrote before and have just written again. It does not mean (as the newspaper authors seemed to think) that her age was not quite 50% below his age!
I don't think there would be boubt about 'a quarter of 100' as being 25 or 'a quarter off 100' as being 75 or would there?
No, I don't think so, but that's not quite the sort of wording we're talking about. I would personally think that "a quarter off 100" would be an unusual thing for anyone to say - much more likely something like "25% less than 100", isn't it?
 
Well it seems to have happened with decimate, which was to kill one in ten, now it seems to mean the reverse, to get rid or nine in ten.
True, although 'decimate' never has been an officially-defined unit - so a bit different.

Having often thought about this and, on occasions over the decades discussed with linguistics (without finding an answer), I have to wonder how on earth this rather extraordinary change of meaning came about - but it clearly happened a very long time ago. The Online Etymological Dictionary says that it started around 1660 "loosely and unetymologically, to the irritation of pedants"!
 
Indeed - expressing angles as radians is, mathematically, very useful for many purposes. An angle of 1 radian is the angle subtended at the middle of a circle by a length of its circumference equal to the radius of the circle (because the entire circumference is 2π times the radius).
Perhaps more importantly, working in radians makes calculus much easier, because it avoids annoying constants in the integration and differentiation formula.
 
Yes, but my point was for John who seems to think it is 'evolution' and a good thing whenever I point out such mistakes.
I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a "good thing", but I do accept that it is an "inevitable thing" - and has been ever since a human being utter the first word of 'language'.

I've never really got an answer out of you as to whether you would be happier if we were all speaking and writing the English of Chaucer, or even earlier?

... and it is Friday evening :-)
 
Perhaps more importantly, working in radians makes calculus much easier, because it avoids annoying constants in the integration and differentiation formula.
Quite so, which is why I wrote ...
.... expressing angles as radians is, mathematically, very useful for many purposes.
(my subsequent explanation of what a radian represents in terms of the geometry of a circle was not intended to be an explanation as to why working with radians is 'mathematically useful')
 
I think you really 'understand' and are just trying to 'get at me' :-) ....
I was - but I don't really understand your views .

No, that's not 'how it works'. 'Evolution of language' is all very well but it does not extend to violating long-established definitions of units. To say that a gill is half a pint (whereas it's defined as being quarter of a pipe) is no different from saying that a yard is two feet - and neither of those would become 'correct' just because some people started using those units incorrectly!
Why then, is it different than using any other word wrongly?


True, although 'decimate' never has been an officially-defined unit - so a bit different.
Well, it sort of has and is. It means a tenth - decimetre etc..

Having often thought about this and, on occasions over the decades discussed with linguistics (without finding an answer), I have to wonder how on earth this rather extraordinary change of meaning came about - but it clearly happened a very long time ago. The Online Etymological Dictionary says that it started around 1660 "loosely and unetymologically, to the irritation of pedants"!
Probably the ignorant used the word wrongly then more copied them - the same as happens now when people spell and pronounce 'have' as 'of' or you using 'less' when it should be 'fewer'.



I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a "good thing", but I do accept that it is an "inevitable thing" - and has been ever since a human being utter the first word of 'language'.
Only inevitable if not corrected.

I've never really got an answer out of you as to whether you would be happier if we were all speaking and writing the English of Chaucer, or even earlier?
I have answered several times saying if that were the case then that would be the norm and we would know no different - sort of obvious really.

... and it is Friday evening :-)
You only say that on Fridays.
 
I need to buff up on °P now as I was under the impression it was based on how long gunpowder soaked in the alcohol would burn for, something to do with the way K disolves in water differently to alcohol
No, I don't think so, but that's not quite the sort of wording we're talking about. I would personally think that "a quarter off 100" would be an unusual thing for anyone to say - much more likely something like "25% less than 100", isn't it?
OK so it's a typo and caught the 3 button instead of 4 but
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but 1/4 off does bring up a very different set of results
 
I was - but I don't really understand your views .
I do my best to explain.
Why then, is it different than using any other word wrongly?
Again, I think you do really understand.
Let me try a slightly different way of putting it ...

In the case of 'use of language', with an 'unregulated' language like English there is not really any 'right' or 'wrong' - all we have is 'common usage'. English dictionaries document current common usage but do not 'define' it, and certainly don't introduce changes/'requirements' in terms of how the language is used. I think that most languages are like that (some may be poorly, if at all, 'documented') but I believe that there are at least some (like French) for which the use of the language is 'regulated' and 'defined' by some official body - hence, in those cases, at any point in time there are 'rights and wrongs' (just as with anything else subject to regulation). One should be able to distinguish the two by 'chronology', since the changes in an English dictionary inevitably follow ('lag behind') changes in 'common usage' (and canm never precede such changes), whereas in a regulated language, changes in 'regulations' will usually precede changes in common usage to comply with those changes.

Things like units are highly regulated/defined, by national and international bodies - so in any country (often many/most/all countries) at any one point in time there will be (and must be) explicitly defined 'rights and wrongs'. You surely must agree that it would be crazy (and totally 'wrong') if individuals started using words like pint, litre, gill, pound, kilogram, metre, mile, volt, Ohm etc. etc. etc. to mean something 'wrong' (differing from the universally-accepted definition, hence essentially universally-used) and that such an error ('incorrectness') would simply not be allowed to spread to the point that it eventually became common usage?
Well, it sort of has and is. It means a tenth - decimetre etc.. ... Probably the ignorant used the word wrongly then more copied them ...
It presumably must have been something like that (as I wrote, seemingly best part of 400 years ago) - but I still find it hard to understand how such a degree of 'incorrectness' managed to 'catch on' to such a degree. It's a bit like having a situation in which increasing numbers of people came to use the word 'cold' to refer to something with a high temperature, to the eventually extent that it became accepted 'common usage'.
- the same as happens now when people spell and pronounce 'have' as 'of' or you using 'less' when it should be 'fewer'.
The former is an (I would say 'understandable') 'phonetic' thing. Particularly when "have" is abbreviated (to " 've' "), and given variations in voices/accents, verbalised versions of, say, "would've" and "would of" can be so difficult to distinguish that I'm not surprised that some have also come to write it incorrectly. As for the latter, and as you know, I am as much a culprit as anyone else (I have a habit of using those 'interchangeably'!) - but I agree that both those issues may have been avoided had people (including myself) been repeatedly 'corrected' at a fairly early stage in life.
Only inevitable if not corrected.
As above, in terms of the English language there is not really any formal 'right' or 'wrong', so really nothing to 'correct' - the mostonec could really do would be to point out that something differed from current common usage.
I have answered several times saying if that were the case then that would be the norm and we would know no different - sort of obvious really.
That's not really an answer to my question. We know that such is not 'what happened' but I'm trying to get you to tell me whether you think that people should have been repeatedly 'corrected' whenever they used English in a manner which differed from what Chaucer (or whoever) would have used it, such that it would have happened, and we would all be speaking and writing "Chaucer's English" today.
 
OK so it's a typo and caught the 3 button instead of 4 but
Yes, as you illustrate, we are forever seeing things like "1/3 off" and "1/4 off", and that is very natural and very common wording - it was things like "1/3 off 100" and "1/4 off 100" which I was suggesting would be somewhat unusual (and uncommon) use of words.
 

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