Well he was Gas Safe so nothing else matters
Quick central heating question !
- Thread starter Sc0tty
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I will bleed the top storey rads with the CH off and motorised valve set to open and then get back to you. The vertical height distance between the F&E tank and the hightest point of the towel radiator in the loft room is approx 4 feet or so I think.
To clarify on my comments above, I would say the distance between highest rad in the house (the loft room towel rad) and the new F&E tank is in fact only about 2 feet or so.
I just turned of the CH and HW at the digital controller, and slid the manual slider on the Motorised Valve in airing cupboard to the OPEN position.
I have opened the air bleed screw on the towel rad in the loft room. Sound of hissing air is heard for about 15 secs or so then the noise stops and no more air escapes. At the same time as the hissing air, I can hear the sound of water entering the rad, but this stops short of fully filling the rad and thus no water escapes from the bleed screw. Does this suggest that the F&E tank is not at a great enough height to fully fill my CH system with water??
I don't see how an experienced gas safe CH engineer would not install the new system correctly. As for changing my system to a sealed one, why would the same engineer not have gone for this type of system when the works were carried out? Why redesign a properly working conventional system to a completely different type? In fact, on the WB website it even states "If you are replacing an older model of boiler, the chances are that you will have a regular (also known as ‘conventional’) boiler." http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/homeowner/boilers/what-is-a-regular-boiler
Does it matter that my grundfos CH pump is located on the ground floor near to boiler rather than on 1st floor in airing cupboard? I cannot make a circuit diagram of the CH system as house is old, large and has lots of hidden pipe work under floors etc.
I just turned of the CH and HW at the digital controller, and slid the manual slider on the Motorised Valve in airing cupboard to the OPEN position.
I have opened the air bleed screw on the towel rad in the loft room. Sound of hissing air is heard for about 15 secs or so then the noise stops and no more air escapes. At the same time as the hissing air, I can hear the sound of water entering the rad, but this stops short of fully filling the rad and thus no water escapes from the bleed screw. Does this suggest that the F&E tank is not at a great enough height to fully fill my CH system with water??
I don't see how an experienced gas safe CH engineer would not install the new system correctly. As for changing my system to a sealed one, why would the same engineer not have gone for this type of system when the works were carried out? Why redesign a properly working conventional system to a completely different type? In fact, on the WB website it even states "If you are replacing an older model of boiler, the chances are that you will have a regular (also known as ‘conventional’) boiler." http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/homeowner/boilers/what-is-a-regular-boiler
Does it matter that my grundfos CH pump is located on the ground floor near to boiler rather than on 1st floor in airing cupboard? I cannot make a circuit diagram of the CH system as house is old, large and has lots of hidden pipe work under floors etc.
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You say you had a loft conversion and had a radiator fitted in to this room. This has now caused a problem as the distance between your feed and expansion tank and top of your radiator is clearly struggling as this works of gravity.
You would of been better advised converting your system to a 'sealed' system. This means you can keep your boiler, cylinder, pumps, valves, etc. However, you would remove your feed and expansion tank and the central heating system would be filled by mains cold water using a filling loop. [an expansion vessel and PRV, etc would also need to be fitted] Since the system would be 'sealed' there is no way air can be drawn into your system and therefore can't rust or block any radiators or pipework. However, more importantly for you - you'll have enough pressure for your radiators to work correctly.
Your gas safe engineer may have not advised you for a few reasons:
- He doesn't really understand central heating systems.
- He may feel the pipework looks old and doesn't want it under too much pressure
- He has spotted something we can not view without being on site
Your options are:
- Live with it
- Convert to a sealed system [not a big job, one day max]
- Fit some Aladdin Autovent [self bleeding plugs]. It'll bleed your rads whenever there is pressure for it to happen - but not a perfect fix.
Hope this help.
You would of been better advised converting your system to a 'sealed' system. This means you can keep your boiler, cylinder, pumps, valves, etc. However, you would remove your feed and expansion tank and the central heating system would be filled by mains cold water using a filling loop. [an expansion vessel and PRV, etc would also need to be fitted] Since the system would be 'sealed' there is no way air can be drawn into your system and therefore can't rust or block any radiators or pipework. However, more importantly for you - you'll have enough pressure for your radiators to work correctly.
Your gas safe engineer may have not advised you for a few reasons:
- He doesn't really understand central heating systems.
- He may feel the pipework looks old and doesn't want it under too much pressure
- He has spotted something we can not view without being on site
Your options are:
- Live with it
- Convert to a sealed system [not a big job, one day max]
- Fit some Aladdin Autovent [self bleeding plugs]. It'll bleed your rads whenever there is pressure for it to happen - but not a perfect fix.
Hope this help.
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THanks Yerino, that is the sort of answer I was looking for. Yes the existing CH pipes in our house are at least 30 years old, but at least I now have some info that I can challenge the plumber with. He did seem very competent to me, and I also spoke to a very experienced and highly recommend local plumber about system requirements before the loft conversion, and he did not think that an open vented system would be a problem (is that the correct term for my system? (2 x cold water storage tanks and 1 x F&E cistern in crawl space above loft bedroom, hot water cylinder in airing cupboard)
Where does the water in the F&E tank go to? does it tap into a rad or the coil inside the hot water cylinder?
Also, what has the F&E tank go to do with being unable to purge all the air from my system? Could I top up the rads in the loft room with water via the air vent lock nut? (remove the bleed valve nut and the blanking nut, pour in the water??!!!) Surely once all my top floor rad are full of water, my system will have no air locks?!
Clearly my top floor rads are not FULL of water as they dont fully heat up, therefore air is trapped in the top of the rads.
Where does the water in the F&E tank go to? does it tap into a rad or the coil inside the hot water cylinder?
Also, what has the F&E tank go to do with being unable to purge all the air from my system? Could I top up the rads in the loft room with water via the air vent lock nut? (remove the bleed valve nut and the blanking nut, pour in the water??!!!) Surely once all my top floor rad are full of water, my system will have no air locks?!
Clearly my top floor rads are not FULL of water as they dont fully heat up, therefore air is trapped in the top of the rads.
That is a very helpful and technically correct solution!
Yet you , with no knowledge of plumbing or heating, respond in such a rude way to someone who was trying to help you.
Some of the human race amaze me!
Tony
Please explain then how his answer to my post is helpful to someone who is not a plumber or CH engineer? Why would I want to change my CH to a sealed system when I have just had a brand new 'conventional' boiler installed with brand new vented coffin tanks? If I wanted a sealed system I would have specified a system boiler?
It must be so great to be as clever as you heating experts.................
Can any of you muppets just give a few pointers to non technical non plumber non central heating people? If I said I was a 25 year old busty blonde bimbo you sun reading idiots would be doing your utmost to try and help me no doubt?
Having read this post I see you specced the install. Makes sense now.
Jeff
No jeff. I did not specify anthing. All works were done as part of the loft conversion project. I am not a plumber or CH expert so why would I tell the plumber how to do his job? As I understand it, anyone who installs a boiler has to be gas safe, so that implies that only a competent person can install a boiler. The guy who installed the boiler also installed a new HW cylinder, new motorised valve (old one was faulty and rads become hot when only HW was called for by the electronic programmer) etc. Same plumber did all the new pipe work and cold tanks and F&E tank in the loft within the new loft room.
So, if you plumbers and CH guys are all so called 'experts', why did my plumber not suggest a sealed system? I can guarantee that if I called 3 plumbers to my house to look at the problem, I would probably be given 3 different answers. I do not see any science in the suggestions given here. But then what do I know?
So, if you plumbers and CH guys are all so called 'experts', why did my plumber not suggest a sealed system? I can guarantee that if I called 3 plumbers to my house to look at the problem, I would probably be given 3 different answers. I do not see any science in the suggestions given here. But then what do I know?
You really should try to be more consistent with what you say!
You cannot say what I have high lighted in bold above and now tell us that you did not spec anything yourself!
From the above you clearly did not WANT a sealed system!
Tony
Tony, like I said, I know nothing about CH systems, other than what I have read whilst trying to get the bottom of this issue. I thought that a system boiler is needed if you have or need/want a sealed system?
A week ago I did not even know what a sealed system is. I think that any competent plumber would not specify a sealed system on my house, as I have old pipes and very long pipe runs do to size of my house, also I already had a perfectly good gravity system in place (albeit with a very old boiler). I can understand why the plumber upgraded the system with a new 'traditional' type condernser bolier as this in an obvious choice for a like for like replacement on a gravity system.
Key points:
I still do not understand whether air is getting into the system - if so, how?
If air is not getting into the system, why cant I vent all the air out of the loft room rads? (yes I know this might be to do with the height of the F&E tank, but can someone explain how the F&E tanks pressurises the system?) Finally, I would think that if anything, the system pressure should be higher than it previously was, because the new F&E tank is now right at the top of the roof apex, wheras before it was on the floor of the loft just above the HW cylinder. If the height of the F&E tank determines system pressure, what relevance is the height of the rads in the new loft room?
A week ago I did not even know what a sealed system is. I think that any competent plumber would not specify a sealed system on my house, as I have old pipes and very long pipe runs do to size of my house, also I already had a perfectly good gravity system in place (albeit with a very old boiler). I can understand why the plumber upgraded the system with a new 'traditional' type condernser bolier as this in an obvious choice for a like for like replacement on a gravity system.
Key points:
I still do not understand whether air is getting into the system - if so, how?
If air is not getting into the system, why cant I vent all the air out of the loft room rads? (yes I know this might be to do with the height of the F&E tank, but can someone explain how the F&E tanks pressurises the system?) Finally, I would think that if anything, the system pressure should be higher than it previously was, because the new F&E tank is now right at the top of the roof apex, wheras before it was on the floor of the loft just above the HW cylinder. If the height of the F&E tank determines system pressure, what relevance is the height of the rads in the new loft room?
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