Radial Circuit - Comments pleas

[jbirschner]

Thank you Riveralt, I appreciate your comments.

I didn't ask about anything else apart if the circuit is good enough for the application and if it complies with regulation. If it's not it will be rectified.
It doesn't matter who is going to carry out the job, as you will nor nobody else in this forum, so please just answer the questions next time in a simple manner. I don't wanna know about all regulations nor wiring specs or if circuit will be protected or not. It's not your decision to make nor anybody else, it's mine only. I'm old enough to know the risks and what should be done at the end.

You seem to be very knowledgeable person but very critical too, so take it easy and share with others who need it.

Best Regards,
Jackson.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have said this before but my belief is that Electrical work ought to be treated in the same way as Gas.

As in DIY gas work not being illegal, you mean?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

2.5mm would heat if one end splits and it could cause fire on a ring.

Not if the ring complies with BS 7671.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It doesn't matter who is going to carry out the job, as you will nor nobody else in this forum, so please just answer the questions next time in a simple manner. I don't wanna know about all regulations nor wiring specs or if circuit will be protected or not. It's not your decision to make nor anybody else, it's mine only. I'm old enough to know the risks and what should be done at the end.

Leave now.

Goodbye.

 

[jbirschner]

That's interesting ban-all-sheds.
Changing subject I would like to know, just for the knowledge, how would you install a new ring with a 32amp MCB and have to install 6x2 gang sockets and prevent it to overheat if a part of your ring get chew by a rat, unnoticed, and your ring splits on way back to CU based on BS7671.

Please specify cable dimension and how it should be done properly.

I really like to know this.

Regards,
Jackson.

 

[riveralt]

Thank you Riveralt, I appreciate your comments.

I didn't ask about anything else apart if the circuit is good enough for the application and if it complies with regulation.

Well actually you did also ask about certification - several times and I did say you are not complying with the regulations.

It doesn't matter who is going to carry out the job....... I don't wanna know about all regulations nor wiring specs or if circuit will be protected or not.

Careful now you're contradicting your previous and next statement.

I'm old enough to know the risks and what should be done at the end.

Sure you are - everything you have said proves that.

 

[jbirschner]

If you are happy with that I'm too. Now few points:

Well actually you did also ask about certification - several times and I did say you are not complying with the regulations.
Please explain what is wrong and point legislation codes.

Careful now you're contradicting your previous and next statement.
I only said that regarding my drawing and what you said. I only wanted to know if it complies I did not ask about earthing system, get license or other stuff as you mentioned on your 1st post. Be specific on you answers.

Thank you for now.
Jackson

 

[Belboz]

I have said this before but my belief is that Electrical work ought to be treated in the same way as Gas.

As in DIY gas work not being illegal, you mean?

I am well aware of what you are implying here BAS and you know full well the answer to that one.

IMHO, the inception of the CORGI register (now Gas Safe) and allied publicity etc. has led to a significant decrease in DIY gas to the point that MOST people now appreciate that they ought to employ a Gas Safe engineer for any gas work. In other words, there is a general public perception of GAS = GAS SAFE ENGINEER. The creation of the register and all that goes with it has, IMHO, led to a better safety record and a much better understanding amongst the general public about the potential dangers of gas and work thereon.

However, no such perception appears to exist amongst the general populace in respect of electrical work. In fact - on the contrary - every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks themselves competent to carry out all sorts of electrical work from replacing a consumer unit to full re-wires. This forum is testament to that.

As I have said, very minor work could be carried out by the DIYer but it should be the exception rather than the rule. A central register (a la Gas Safe) and the bells and whistles which go with that would go some way to re-educating the public about the dangers of electrical work and re-inforcing the idea that such work ought to only be carried out by properly qualified persons.

The vagaries of the law in failing to properly define competent is a side issue.

As it currently stands, the whole field is wide open for cowboys and you - of all people - have seen enough of that type of work to know that a system is needed to combat dangerous wiring work carried out by someone who once read the Collins DIY manual.............

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That's interesting ban-all-sheds.
Changing subject I would like to know, just for the knowledge, how would you install a new ring with a 32amp MCB and have to install 6x2 gang sockets and prevent it to overheat if a part of your ring get chew by a rat, unnoticed, and your ring splits on way back to CU based on BS7671.

With great difficulty.

Total brain fade on my part - don't know what I was thinking, but all the evidence suggests "nothing". Your concern is a valid one, and one I share to a large extent - not sure you'd actually get a fire, but things might get hot.

Sorry.

 

[JohnW2]

I have said this before but my belief is that Electrical work ought to be treated in the same way as Gas. IMHO, the amount of DIY gas work has decreased considerably since the inception of Corgi and Gas Safe registration and the world is a safer place for that. Surely time to treat electrical work in the same manner? After all, electricity can kill just as much as gas. ...

It can, but I think things need to be kept in perspective. Somewhat to my surprise, the number of domestic UK deaths per year due to electricity is barely into double figures, and is roughly equivalent to the number who die on UK roads about every 4 days (just a few days ago, it would have been 2 days). Of that tiny number, probably only a small proportion (therefore 'hardly any') are anything to do with DIY electrical work. In contrast, there are probably more deaths, and certainly more serious injuries, due to other types of DIY, not to mention the countless number of deaths and injuries due to other 'lifestyle choices'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am well aware of what you are implying here BAS and you know full well the answer to that one.

I'm not implying anything - I'm stating as a fact that DIY gas work is not illegal.

The creation of the register and all that goes with it has, IMHO, led to a better safety record and a much better understanding amongst the general public about the potential dangers of gas and work thereon.

The incident statistics do not bear that out, particularly when you factor in the increased prevalence of room-sealed appliances.

However, no such perception appears to exist amongst the general populace in respect of electrical work. In fact - on the contrary - every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks themselves competent to carry out all sorts of electrical work from replacing a consumer unit to full re-wires. This forum is testament to that.

What this forum is a testament to is a shameful unwillingness to tell people that they are ignorant and incompetent and that genuine understanding is a sine qua non.

As it currently stands, the whole field is wide open for cowboys and you - of all people - have seen enough of that type of work to know that a system is needed to combat dangerous wiring work carried out by someone who once read the Collins DIY manual.............

It would help if people here did not encourage and facilitate work done by incompetent people.

 

[Belboz]

Cannot agree with you in relation to safety BAS but we will agree to disagree.

John - What about the 18 deaths from fire? It's not all just about electrical shock but I agree that the numbers are low. However, the numbers are low for gas as well - certainly in comparison to road deaths.

If professionals are happy with the current setup then fine. As I clearly stated, the posts I made were IMHO.

Regards,

B

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Cannot agree with you in relation to safety BAS but we will agree to disagree.

Often said, as in this case, by people in the wrong who want to avoid any more discussion.

John - What about the 18 deaths from fire?

You have reliable evidence that those fires were caused by incompetent DIY work on fixed wiring installations?

 

[Belboz]

Actually BAS, I didn't want to divert/hijack the thread hence why I said we would agree to disagree. However, as you have raised it:

(a) The HSE has made it clear that there has been a downward trend for both fatalities as a result of gas explosions/fires AND fatalities from Carbon Monoxide in the last few decades. Figures in respect of explosions/fires showed 11 in 1995/1996 with a peak of 15 in 2003/2004 but decreasing to only 2 in each of the last 3 years [2011/2012, 2012/2013 and 2013/2014]

In relation to CO fatalities from gas, that peaked as 37 in 1998, was 18 in 2004 and fell to 13 in 2010/2011. The last recorded year (2013/2014) it was 3. Even if you add in other fuels (aside from gas) the numbers are decreasing.

The HSE suggest that these incidents may arise from faulty installations or DIY involving flues/boilers. Of course the other 2 factors are lack of servicing and (less so) lack of CO alarms.

Of course, using your logic, there is no evidence to prove that these reductions are a direct result of the Corgi/Gas Safe schemes but, on the other hand, there is no evidence to say they aren't.

Same goes for your question about the 18 fire fatalities. Those were given as being down to faulty wiring/cabling/CU. I cannot say they were DIY installations but neither can I say they weren't.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

(a) The HSE has made it clear that there has been a downward trend for both fatalities as a result of gas explosions/fires AND fatalities from Carbon Monoxide in the last few decades.

The first decade:

In relation to CO fatalities from gas, that peaked as 37 in 1998, was 18 in 2004 and fell to 13 in 2010/2011. The last recorded year (2013/2014) it was 3. Even if you add in other fuels (aside from gas) the numbers are decreasing.

But are they decreasing because of the Corgi/Gas Safe regimes, or because of more modern, safer, appliances?

The HSE suggest that these incidents may arise from faulty installations or DIY involving flues/boilers.

"Suggest". That's hardly rigorous, is it.

Of course, using your logic, there is no evidence to prove that these reductions are a direct result of the Corgi/Gas Safe schemes but, on the other hand, there is no evidence to say they aren't.

This is where we get to the fundamental misunderstanding at the heart of your attitude (discussion of which is relevant, BTW, as you were proposing changing the law regarding electrical work). If you want to claim that a particular regime has brought about a safety improvement, you must, must, MUST have solid evidence in support. Saying that there is no evidence that it has not done that simply will not do.

And when considering evidence, you might like to think about statistical significance.

Same goes for your question about the 18 fire fatalities. Those were given as being down to faulty wiring/cabling/CU. I cannot say they were DIY installations

Then you cannot say that DIY work needs restricting. You really cannot, and that's all there is to it.