Radial to Ring and other questions..

[adam81]

Hi,

I've recently moved into a new property and have a couple of questions for you guys.

At present their are 2 x 32a breakers in my CU. plus others for other circuits.

One is serving the kitchen plus a few other sockets on 2.5mm cable, this is a ring.

The other is feeding 2 radial circuits, both of which are on 2.5mm cable as well. This should be from what I've read either 2.5mm cable on a 20a breaker split across 2 breakers, or 4mm cable into a 32a breaker. My CU is full so that means a sparky to carry out that work.

But I've read on another post that turning a radial into a ring is not notifiable, so could I do this and as I then would not have to change the breaker in the CU.

I understand the arguments against the ring circuit, and if this was 2.5mm cable run into a single 20a breaker I'd leave it. But it is not a big job to make the 2 legs into a ring. When the rewire was done (pre Part P) it looks as though the reason for not doing so would have been simply been the mess it would have made. But when I get to this point walls can be chased so no issue.

At present I have no concerns over the loads of the 2 radials as I have identified them for what they are. One leg is feeding 3 Double sockets (Of which 2 of the 6 sockets get used - Max 2 amps)

The other feeds 2 double sockets (Max load 8 amps being brutal) ( with a FSU) So no danger of the wire melting before the fuse trips.

The alternative I suppose is to get a twin breaker (found this while searching elsewhere) Split the 2 legs of the radial and extend sockets from there. I could utilise Y splits at this point as well.

And one more question, I see installing additional sockets in a garden shed is notifiable but what about integral garages

The full rewire was all pre part P

 

[ericmark]

You have two options. Change the MCB to 20A or make into ring. As to Part P I am frankly not worried. I am more worried about if you can do the job correctly. In order to do the work you must be able to verify you have a ring. And you would need to inspect and test your work.

Whole reason for changing is health and safety so unless you can do it correct what is the point.

Where the problem lies is the test gear. It is expensive. The cheapest option is a plug in tester with a loop test as one of it's functions which is around £60 or to hire proper test set at around £75.

By time you have paid out for these not really worth DIY.

 

[adam81]

I can do the work, having done lots of electrical work previously within the regs, and before regs were passed.

What I can't do is test with certified gear but confirm continuity with a multimeter, and ensure all connections are made correctly.

Cost wise I would have thought it would be a lot more costly for me to get it done professionally than £60 I suppose.

As I say at this point i'm not planning on doing the work just interested as to what could be done when I get to the point of doing it I suppose, be it by me or a professional.

What it does impact on at the moment though is preperation in one of the rooms I'm redocarting. If putting a 20A fuse in, feeding 2 radial is allowed I have no problems.
Cheers

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As to Part P I am frankly not worried.

Well you should be - I think this is perfectly reasonable, and not to be casually disregarded:

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What I can't do is test with certified gear but confirm continuity with a multimeter

That's not adequate.

If putting a 20A fuse in, feeding 2 radial is allowed I have no problems.

It's notifiable, and the cables should be tested and inspected first to confirm that they are OK for a 20A breaker.

Yes - I know that the requirements for current carrying capacity and EFLI etc are less onerous if you put a 20A in to replace the existing and unsuitable 32A one, but by doing it you become responsible for the correctness of the circuit.

 

[adam81]

If putting a 20A fuse in, feeding 2 radial is allowed I have no problems.

By this I meant more the fact I don't have considerations to take into account during decorating I realise this is notifiable.

... the cables should be tested and inspected first to confirm that they are OK for a 20A breaker.

Would the sparky putting the new breaker in have to check all existing cables in the radials first? These are the reasons why I'm asking the questions now as I am in the middle of decorating and not all these cables can be inspected visually without pulling them through.

Are 2 radials into one 20A breaker Ok then, as I do need to make a spur at the moment for one bedroom which I will do myself, but have the option of adding it to the ring main or leaving it disconnected until the radials are 20A or turned into a ring
Thanks so far..

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

as stated above the simply option would be to remove 32A and replace with 20A, installing a new breaker would come under notifiable work.
Another thing to consider is does this circuit have RCD protection? If not, it is very much likely, you would need to protect this circuit with it.
So even if you connected the two radials to make one RFC, the alteration would need RCD protection. Again special testing equipment would be needed to prove the circuit is safe and the RCD is operating correctly.

And one more question, I see installing additional sockets in a garden shed is notifiable but what about integral garages

Installing additional sockets in garden sheds or garages is not notifiable, installing new circuits is, additional sockets will come under minor work.
Again, adding extra sockets to an existing circuit in an integral garage is not notifiable work, installing new circuits is.

 

[ColJack]

how do you know it's 2 radials?
where in the west midlands are you?
if you happen to live in a ground floor flat in a converted hospital in Tamworth then I may know what the problem is..

who told you that additional sockets in a shed are notifiable?
IN the shed isn't IN the garden so fall under the same as additional sockets in the rest of the house..

 

[adam81]

Both the 32A ring final and 32A (2x radial circuits) are protected by an RCD as well as Shower and immersion heater.

In Coventry so don't have a the Tamworth issue (sounds interesting..)

I've not got proper testing gear admittedly but determined it was 2 radials by.
1.Checking for continuity across the 2 legs
2. Pulling 1 leg and seeing where I was getting voltage
3. Making sure it wasn't just a broken ring by looking at what was wired into the back of each socket.

Any other tests I can do without proper gear, I don't want to get a sparky at this point as I will have one in when I redo the kitchen anyway.
Cheers

Re:Shed
This link suggested a new socket in a Shed was..
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm

For the time being I'll leave it then until I get someone in when I redo the kitchen, and have them replace the 32A breaker, but it will still mean 2 legs into one as I have no space left in the CU, which some posts I've found suggesting it to be a grey area..

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50585

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Re:Shed
This link suggested a new socket in a Shed was..
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm[/QUOTE]
Don't listen to them - they are a bunch of ignorant, lying cheats who actually don't want you to know the truth.

Schedule 4 will show you what is not notifiable.

 

[ColJack]

In Coventry so don't have a the Tamworth issue (sounds interesting..)

The ground floor flat was the show flat..
all went well and was tested properly when they reported that plugging a small 110v transformer in was tripping the ring..

after some tracing it was found that they had sqewered part of the ring with a metal plasterboard fixing whilst mounting the towel radiator in the bathroom.
since the walls were finished and painted, and the flat decorated ready for the open house the next day, it was decided to split the one ring into a radial on a 20A RCBO to be repaired at a later date after the flats had been sold and the showflat was able to be worked on ( needed a wall / ceiling ripping down to re-run the cable.. )

since I was a subbie and was sent off to another job in scotland a week later, I don't know if it was ever rectified..

 

[ColJack]

Re:Shed
This link suggested a new socket in a Shed was..
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm[/QUOTE]
Don't listen to them - they are a bunch of ignorant, lying cheats who actually don't want you to know the truth.

Schedule 4 will show you what is not notifiable.

it depends on what they are refering to..
a NEW socket that requires the installation of a NEW circuit in a shed is notifiable, an ADDITIONAL socket isnt.. ( as a NEW circuit is notifiable in all locations, ADDITIONS are not unless in kitchen / bathroom / special locations etc.. )

 

[ban-all-sheds]

since I was a subbie and was sent off to another job in scotland a week later, I don't know if it was ever rectified..

A last-minute fix like that, done in a rush? No doubt with someone thinking "must remember to sort that out when..."?

I think we can all have a good guess as to whether it was ever rectified

 

[ColJack]

it wasn't my place to rectify it..
the main sparky contractor was aware of it and it was done by one of their boys with written "approval" from the main site foreman to the effect that the damage would need to be rectified after the flat was no longer required as a show flat at an extra cost..