Rawl plugs..

[Quilted]

I'm very amateur at DIY and I'm struggling to get things done properly. Often I find when I drill into my walls to mount shelves, for example, I don't get the holes in the right place or the rawl plugs don't take, or the screws don't take.

I understand the mechanics of how a rawl plug works, however I don't know if there's a real difference between the manufacturers - is Plasplugs ok for example, or should I go for the cheapest.

I also don't know what type of screws are best to use.

To mount shelves and similar into brick and concrete walls I'm intending using a normal red plasplugs wall plug. They're cheap and I can get them online for less than a couple of quid for 100. I do need countersunk screws to go in there so that it's flush.

I've been searching on the web today and found that I should be drilling deeper than I need and putting the wall plug in a bit further so that it doesn't crack the surface. Thinking about it I expect this will allow the screw a nice solid fit to the wall.

Am I right in thinking that these will do the job fine - it's not going to be taking a lot of weight. I sadly don't have any idea at what screws would be best to use.

I'm sorry if this seems like a very stupid or simple question, my dad taught me DIY and I'm now realising he would simply lie when he didn't know the answer, and lie about his half baked way being the best way. I believe this is best in general DIY as it's not woodwork, and I don't see a more suitable forum. My apologies if I've selected poorly.

 

[Burnerman]

Consider using Fischer fixings wherever you go.....they tend to grip much better in the hole than the cheaper ones, and have a sharp spline that can help prevent the plug from turning. For screws, you won't get better than the likes of Spax so blow the expense!
Use a masonry drill that is smaller than the plug requirements, and if that drills clean and good you can then use the proper size (usually 5, 6, or 8mm but there are others).
For shelves or load bearing gear use either 6 or 8, depending on the shelf span / number of brackets etc. Often if you buy stuff for self construction some advice or recommendation is given.
If you are using screws for example that are 40 x 5, that means that they are 40mm long and 5mm diameter so a 6mm plug would be too tight - go for an 8mm one.
One of the main requirements is a quality masonry hammer drill and a selection of bits - and don't let the drill spin too fast as the bit could overheat.
John

 

[Quilted]

Thanks John. I ordered a new drill and bits today. I chose DeWalt and I'm binning my old cordless drill, because it doesn't spin straight, and the cheap Bosch drill bit set I bought is being binned too because they've worn out and I don't think were any good to start with.

I'm very tempted to just get the Plasplugs set where the screws and the plugs come together in the same package, because that way I can't get it wrong. Are they poor in comparison to what you recommend?

I understand the screw dimensions, but I don't understand what kind of thread I should be getting or what colour/material the screw should be made of.

 

[Burnerman]

Well, its just my personal choice really to go for Fischer....simply because any failure rate is significantly reduced. Also I have a wide variety of screws at hand (nearly all are countersunk Spax but I've got a lot of stainless ones too).
The thing with these kits is 'all the screws and plugs you are ever likely to need' ......apart from whats needed for the job you are busy with!
If your working conditions are ideal then you won't go far wrong with whatever you use. However you'll come across bricks that are so hard the drill bit gets red hot, plaster that breaks away and has you trying to fix into fresh air, thermalite and breeze blocks etc.
So - a couple of tips......you've drilled a hole deep enough but the plug won't go fully in - chop the plug end off with a chisel.
Next, the wall is maybe a little crumbly - coat the plug with pva glue, tap it in and leave it a while.
Its all about confidence really!
John

 

[Quilted]

Thanks again John. Lots of helpful information there.

The plasplugs things I'm on about aren't one of those big sets of rubbish, I may be daft but I'm not that daft.

http://www.plasplugs.com/acatalog/Web_shop_Solid_Wall_Fixings_52.html

The ones I'm looking at are the pack of 25 which have 25 screws and 25 red plugs. They come with a drill bit too, I've no idea if it's best to use their drill bit or to use the one from the set I've bought. I suspect theirs will be pretty much a disposable one! Some of the walls of my home have ash inside them - apparently popular in the 60s - but it makes drilling very time consuming. The last time I used my drill and bit (that's going in the bin) it was taking 3 minutes or so per hole.

I usually mask over the holes I'm intending to cut to stop plaster crumbling, but I've not had it happen yet to me.

 

[Burnerman]

Well, they do have to be good value, don't they, and I'm sure you'll be just fine with them. You'll not shift me from my Fischer though
As for the drill, who knows - I have a handy Makita set that goes from 4mm to 8mm, and is really good for getting accurate pilot holes or if you're not sure what the wall is made of.
Any blunt masonry bit goes straight in the bin!
Most 240v drills spin far too fast for good drilling - battery ones less so.
I've also an elderly 240v Hilti which has a SDS chuck and air blows to the drill bit, and thats never been beat.
Your ash walls are probably just blacked bricks that were over baked years ago - very common and the dust they produce stains everything!
Keep plenty pressure on the hammer drill, and don't let the drill tip get too hot.
Enjoy your projects - anyone who wants to get stuck in and learn gets my vote.
John

 

[Quilted]

I have a friend who is a surveyor for the council and he knows the buildings and he says ash, however I don't know if he just means that's what you get when you work with them!

I got the ones I'm after cheap. 75 screws and plugs for less than £7 including delivery. Probably I could have done better if I was buying more but I'm just fixing up my home so I don't need piles

I went for this drill

http://www.dewalt.co.uk/powertools/productdetails/catno/DWD024K/info/specifications/

I don't think it'll be too much for the job, it wasn't especially expensive (£80) and I went for this drill bit set

http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/index.php?_g=ex&_a=prodImages&productId=741

Although I'm paying considerably less!

Surely they'll be good enough for an amateur.

One question you might be able to answer since you seem to be a genius in comparison to me... when I have, for example, a floating shelf bracket and I have lots of marks to make on a wall while I keep it straight... how would you do it so that you don't accidentally move it while you're marking the points you need to drill?

As far as drilling holes for things like that... in future I'm going to use a 4mm drill bit and then follow up with the 6mm or 8mm depending on what size of hole I want. Is there anything else I should be doing to make sure my holes are as straight and accurate as possible?

 

[Burnerman]

Again, the kit that you've bought will be just fine, and to keep the drill speed low keep plenty of pressure on it and squeeze the trigger in bursts.
For shelving issues treat yourself to a good spirit level (stabilo are excellent but cheaper B&Q stuff will do).
You need to mark a horizontal line on the wall using the level, get a hold of a helper and get one good fixing on one end of the shelf. The shelf can then be pivotted up to the perfect horizontal, and the second hole marked and drilled. If the first hole has wandered then worry ye not - just make sure the shelf is completely level for the second one....don't try to fake levels, they'll always come back to haunt.
Once the shelf is secured level, then the other holes can be marked and drilled.
Practice again
You'll find most masonary walls will allow you to drill without the drill skidding off, but the exception to that are tiles that have a hard glaze....for that, you have to break through the glaze with the drill on the non hammer action, and you use masking tape to get that crucial indentation for the drill to bite.
Get your helper to 'sight' the drill from alongside you...although you may think you are perpendicular to the wall, in reality the drill could be pointing either up or down. You get used to it!!
John

 

[Quilted]

Ok.. let me make sure I have this in my head correctly!

I take my spirit level (I already have one) and I mark a horizontal line on my wall in pencil.

I then place the bracket along that line, holding it place carefully and mark one single hole.

I mask the mark (and mark again on top)

I then drill a small hole into the mark using a smaller drill bit than I'm going to use.

I drill in the proper hole (a bit deeper than it needs to be?) and fire in the rawl plug, tapping it into place with a hammer.

I put the bracket back up and fire a screw in, holding the bracket in place.

I can then mark out another hole - at the other end I would guess. I can then remove the screw, and the bracket and drill the other hole... then put the bracket back up and put two screws in, and mark the rest of the holes.. remove the screws and bracket, mark the other holes and drill them all out and put the bracket up for the final time.

Meanwhile somebody else is making sure I'm not drilling at an angle.

I have a wire spice rack (that I messed up fitting) which will be going onto my white emulsioned plastered kitchen wall. That needs to be perfect since unlike floating shelves it won't hide anything I've done wrong... Again I'll use the same tactics.

Have I understood everything correctly, John? Once again thanks for your help!

 

[Burnerman]

That sounds pretty good to me......! If the wall is particularly hard, use the drill to clear out the hole (push it in and out a few times) - this allows the plug to go all the way in - if the hole is too deep it doesn't matter. Many's the time we give the hole a good blow and get an eyeful of dust
If your spice rack came with its own screws they are likely to look better than the typical countersunk screws that we bulk buy, so use them...if need be you can use a spare screw just to temporarily locate the thing.
If you need to get a plug back out, just thread a screw in a couple of turns and that gives you something to tug.
Enjoy! I'm sure it will be a success and that does give you a buzz.
John

 

[Quilted]

Well, I've already made a complete pigs ear a couple of months ago when I tried putting the floating shelves up, I can't tell if it's the shelves or if it was my fitting... I'll find out when I try to fix them I guess.

I have enough to be going on with - that's next Sunday's jobs if I'm not hungover from Saturday

 

[Burnerman]

Sometimes these floating shelves have horizontal bars fixed to the wall bracket, which you have to carefully bend to get them level...now thats going to give any wall plug a hard time!
Have fun
John

 

[Quilted]

The ones I have are metal and part of the bracket is tubes which the shelf slides on to. The shelves are sloping at a terrible angle and stuff is nearly falling off them, and they won't take any weight at all.

I complained to Homebase about it and the manufacturer was supposed to get back to me - their website has dozens of bad reviews of the shelves for the same reasons I said.

2 months later they've not bothered their arses in getting back to me. However I'm thinking it might be the way I've fitted them so I'll see when the drill and screws etc arrive and I'll try one more time before writing a letter to their CEO and seeing what happens.

I may need to get some kind of fitting to go underneath the shelves to fix it, but I can see the underside of the shelves when I'm sat at the computer so I really don't want to go down that road.

 

[Burnerman]

Yep I know the type and although the theory and look of these things is fine, installation can be a different thing....on occasion I have packed out the top or bottom edge of the metal bracket (between the bracket and wall) to get them to work the way they should. Its a bad move to try and heave on them when they are in place and you certainly can't overload them!
John

 

[JohnD]

if the wall is crumbly or the hole is not a good fit for the plug:

check that it is plenty deep enough and wide enough for both the screw and the plug you intend to use

clean out all the dust and grit with a vac or a water squirt

put the nozzle of a no-more-nails or cheapo equivalent deep into the hole, and fill it, from the back, so there is no air bubble at the far end

push your plastic plug right into the hole, slightly below the surface, and clean off excess adhesive (in time you will learn how much adhesive to use)

Verify that the plug is exactly where you want it (it helps to put the screw a couple of turns into the plug to use as a handle)

Go and do something else.

When the adhesive has set the next day, you can drive your screw and it will not turn or come loose.

This is the best DIY tip I have learned in over 20 years.