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Repainting bathroom...walls taken back to plaster...help!

Discussion in 'Decorating and Painting' started by pardie14, 29 Jan 2006.

  1. pardie14

    pardie14

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    Hi - have small but well ventilated bathroom...took off peeling vinyl paper which also brought away most of the original (vinyl) paint. Now left with patchy walls, mostly bare plaster, some v persistent patches of vinyl. Am slowly chipping off the vinyl paint - without damaging the plaster..when I've done this, should I seal with PVA solution? Or is this wrong for a bathroom? I was thinking of a Dulux emulsion on the walls... will this peel? Am complete novice. Not sure what I should put on the bare plaster so that I don't end up with mouldy walls or peeling paint... any help much appreciated thanks so much xx
     
  2. Nestor_Kelebay

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    Well, I just did the same thing in one of my bathrooms (Suite 21) about two weeks ago. The paint had kinda cracked and wrinkled a bit. I don't know how old it was.

    I took the paint off down to the bare plaster.

    Patched any gouges by filling them with drywall joint compound and sanded smooth.

    Primed with Zinsser's Bullseye 123 water based primer only because that's what I had on hand.

    Then I top coated with a paint MEANT for the high humidity inside bathrooms, and in my case I used Zinsser's PermaWhite Bathroom paint in the satin gloss.

    And, that's what I do in all 21 of the bathrooms in my small apartment block, and I've never had any peeling problems whatsoever with Zinsser's Bathroom Paint. I think that's 90 percent of the solution.

    You don't need to get off every bit of paint. If a paint is putting up a heroic fight to stay on the ceiling, why take it off just to replace it with a less determined paint?
     
  3. Zampa

    Zampa

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    Whatever you use...dont touch dulux kitchen and bathroom paint..its evil in a tin!
     
  4. pardie14

    pardie14

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    Now I'm worried. Why evil in a tin? Hard to paint with, smells bad, what? This is what I might have gone for...do let me in on it ...

    Thanks for the advice re primer. So, I need a water-based primer and proper bathroom paint. The previous paint has to come off because...it's textured vinyl. Would look a bit of a mess if I painted over it, patches showing through etc. It's OK, as most of it is flaking off of its own accord now.

    So why evil Dulux paint? :eek:
     
  5. Zampa

    Zampa

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    The majority of Dulux paints are fine...but kitchen and bathroom paint is like glue to apply and it has a tendancy to run and sag...if the room is cold it can also take an absolute age to dry.

    Its a marketing ploy too...having you beleive that it is the only thing you can use in kitchen and bathrooms.

    If you have got it already then id suggest you thin it out a little for ease of application.

    If you hvnt opened the tin id suggest soft sheen instead or acrylic eggshell...which is more of less what kitchen and bathroom paint is.

    Its not very popular in the trade.
     
  6. pardie14

    pardie14

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    Thanks for that, I'll avoid it like the plague then... was actually going to use matt emulsion (mainly cos there's more colour choices) ... the ceiling was done in Focus Basics Matt Emulsion and hasn't moulded or flaked, so I thought I might get away with Dulux Matt Emulsion in the rest of the bathroom. But... eggshell could work ... haven't bought anything yet!

    Thanks for all the help. Great to talk to people who know what's what! Cheers! :D
     
  7. Nestor_Kelebay

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    Pardie:

    If you never had a problem with the old paint that was there before, you can probably get away with just using a regular wall paint in your bathroom.

    If you want a little extra protection, you might want to use an EXTERIOR latex paint in your bathroom rather than an interior wall paint. Basically, about the only difference between exterior and interior latex paints is that the exterior paints will have more biocides and UV blockers added to them to prevent mildew and fungi from growing on the paint, and to protect it from the UV light from the Sun. Also exterior paints need to be a bit softer to stretch and shrink with any wood siding they go over, whereas you want a harder paint for indoors to stand up better to scrubbing stubborn marks off the walls.

    Also, exterior latex paints will often use zinc oxide as the white pigment instead of titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide kinda acts as a catalyst in the degradation of paint binders by UV light from the Sun, so houses painted white will often have more chaulking than if they were painted another color. DuPont coats it's "Ti-Pure" line of titanium dioxide paint pigments with some sort of plastic to minimize this catalyst effect, but less expensive titanium dioxide from offshore sources won't be coated in this way. Also zinc and copper are natural biocides (as in zinc and copper napthalene end cut preservatives for wood). So, by using zinc oxide as a white pigment instead of titanium dioxide, you get better resistance against mildew (from the zinc) and better UV resistance (from losing the titanium dioxide).

    You don't need the extra UV protection in a bathroom, but the additional protection against mildew and fungi might be worth while.
     
  8. Zampa

    Zampa

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    I dont want to contradict your good advide here nester expect one small point...exterior latex...or masonary paint as we call it here has fungi/algicides in it..if the room gets steamy then these can migrate into any condensation that forms on the wall and the moisture will become a little harmful.

    Exterior paint though is a very good alternative to orinary emulsion in most areas...its very durable and doesnt show polishing marks easy.
     
  9. Nestor_Kelebay

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    Zampa:

    I expect that the algicides and fungicides in exterior emulsion paints probably work much the same as the mildewcides added to bathroom paints intended for indoor use. I know for sure that it's the solubility of mildewcides in water that draws the mildewcide to the surface of a bathroom paint under humid conditions. And, if you're saying the algicides and fungicides from an exterior emulsion paint would dissolve in any condensation that forms on that paint paint, then I can just about guarantee that the same thing would happen with a bathroom paint, except it would be mildewcides dissolving in that condensation.

    I wouldn't want to lick that condensation off the walls in either case, but I'm not aware that the algicides and fungicides in the exterior emulsion would be any more (or less) harmful than the mildewcides in bathroom paints, and there's no serious health concerns with using bathroom paints in bathrooms that I'm aware of. Since those mildewcides are soluble in water, anyone cleaning a bathroom wall with a damp rag or sponge would come into contact with them because they'd dissolve in the cleaning water.

    The poster said he'd had no trouble with mildew growing on the bathroom walls in the past with a regular emulsion paint, and he was saying he was probably just going to apply another regular emulsion. I figured that even though an exterior emulsion might not have the same mildewcides in it that a bathroom paint does, whatever will kill fungi outside would probably have some effect on mildew inside, so using the exterior paint would be expected (in my view at least) to provide some additional protection against mildew that you wouldn't have with a regular interior emulsion.

    However, if you're aware of any other reasons not to use exterior paints indoors, or if you know of a web site that warns against doing that, then let me know as I am not aware of any reasons other than those cited in this post.


    PS:
    There is a general warning not to use exterior paints indoors for painting thinks like cribs and children's toys, but the reason for that is that children will stick things in their mouths and/or gnaw on the railings of their cribs. Under those conditions the biocides in that paint will then dissolve in the child's saliva, and be ingested. But, so far as I know, that is the only reason for that warning about using exterior paints indoors. So far as I know, all of the biocides used in paints are in a solid form. It's not like they're a liquid that emits vapours or anything that could poison the air if used indoors. My understanding is that they're all solids that migrate to the surface of a paint film under humid conditions due to their solubility in water just like the mildewcides in bathroom paints do.
     
  10. Nestor_Kelebay

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    HOLD ON!!!

    I'VE GIVEN SOME BAD ADVICE HERE.

    DON'T USE EXTERIOR PAINTS INDOORS!

    I just Googled the phrase "exterior paints indoors" and found that every web site I found agreed with Zampa that you shouldn't use it indoors.

    There's this Q&A on the PaintStore web site's "Ask Dr. Paint Q&A's:

    Question I have some white exterior paint that I want to use indoors. Is this a problem? I can understand using interior paints outside is not a good idea, but what are the potential problems with using an exterior paint indoors?
    Answer Don't use exterior paints indoors for two reasons:

    1) An exterior paint is made to be flexible enough to withstand the movement the occurs in substrates due to changes in temperature and humidity. Because the flexibility means a softer paint film, exterior paints will not withstand the physical abuse, washing and scrubbing that interior paints are designed to handle.

    2) Most exterior paints contain chemicals to inhibit the growth of mildew on the paint film. The amount of mildewcide in an exterior paint usually exceeds the limits allowable for indoor use.

    And there is this excerpt from a Paint Quality Institute newsletter Q&A:
    http://www.paintquality.com/contractor/newsletters/contNL1105.html

    Q: I know not to use interior paints outside for durability reasons, but what about using exterior paints indoors – is there any problem with that?

    A: This question comes up from time to time, mainly from do-it-yourselfers, but it can be helpful for contractors, as well. We recommend against using exterior paint indoors. There can be lingering odor from the paint that can be quite disagreeable. An exterior paint may not tend to flow out as well as the interior counterpart, so brush and roller marks can be a problem. Also, the paint may take longer to dry and cure, so surfaces may stick to themselves (“block”), such as a painted door sticking to the painted door jamb.

    Sorry for the bad advice. I knew that exterior paints were softer, but it didn't occur to me that the amount of mildewcides in them would be HIGHER than bathroom paints, and therefore not be allowed indoors!
    Also, I can't really understand why an exterior paint wouldn't flow and level as well indoors, nor do I see why an exterior paint would take longer to dry indoors, so there must be more of a difference between interior and exterior paints than I was aware of.

    Anyhow, as soon as I got on my computer tonight and did that Google check, I figured I should come right back in here and correct myself.

    Both web sites are obviously highly reliable. The Paint Store web site is owned by an association of painting and wall covering contractors.
    http://www.paintstore.com
    I am a little puzzled by the fact that both sites seem to be citing different reasons for not using exterior paints indoors, although it's clear both recommend against it.
     
  11. swelec

    swelec

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    Nestor

    I have read any of your very useful posts since you joined his site and enjoy the way you present your data

    My admiration for you has now gone even higher since your last post. It takes a good man to admit his mistakes and to also prove he was wrong

    My old man used to say "learn something new every day - its what makes life worth living"
     
  12. Nestor_Kelebay

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    Well, now I know that I'm still learning too.
     
  13. Zampa

    Zampa

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    Aint we all!....you NEVER stop learning..

    When you think you have learn't everything.....then your in trouble...

    Interesting about not using masonry paint inside though..I have always found it very good for withstanding light scuffs made you its brushed with clothing or a box...certainly better than vinyl matt.

    I often offer it as an alternative to silk on Artex ceiling...its slightly less than a mid sheen emulsion..(latex to you Nester!! :) )...

    Oh and Nester...funny thing after you lst post yesterday I too scoured the web sites and I couldnt find a single one that said you SHOULDNT use it inside!...
     
  14. pardie14

    pardie14

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    Feel like a mouse between two elephants in terms of decorating experience! (No offence). Does anyone have anything to say about the 1829 range of emulsion paints (Craig & Rose)? Or Crown vs. Dulux?

    Also, my next project: turning a dark blue gloss skirting board/door frame into a white gloss one. Uck. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Nestor_Kelebay

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    Pardie:
    you said next project = "turning a dark blue gloss skirting board/door frame into a white gloss one"

    If you're wanting to paint gloss white over blue, keep in mind these two things:

    1) the second highest hiding pigments used in paints is the white pigment titanium dioxide, and it's second only to black in hiding strength.
    Titanium dioxide is also one of the most expensive pigments, and so as a general rule, the less you pay for a white paint, the less titanium dioxide you get in it, and the less well it will hide an underlying color. So, if you want good hide in a white or pastel tint base, spend more for a better quality paint with more titanium dioxide in it to get better hide so that you have to put fewer coats of paint on.
    Believe it or not, the black pigment used in paints is actually soot. It's not dirty soot; it's soot produced by burning natural gas in special furnaces with insufficient oxygen to make copious amounts of very pure soot. Black pigments are also the smallest of the pigments commonly used in house paints because you can make soot particles that are extremely small; much finer than you can grind something.

    2. As a general rule, the glossier the paint, the less well it will hide an underlying color. That's cuz the higher the gloss of a paint, the smaller the percentage of the volume of the paint film that is occupied by pigments, and it's the pigments that give you color and opacity since the binder is normally transparent and colorless.

    So, to get better hide, you might consider painting over the blue with a lower gloss white, and then topcoating with your high gloss white, thereby relying on the first coat to provide the hiding ability, and the second to provide the surface gloss you want.

    Zampa:

    That's another difference in terminology between North America and Britain; masonary vs. exterior paint.

    Over here, any paint meant to be applied to the outside of a house or building is an exterior paint. The term "MASONARY paint" means one that's specifically formulated to breathe well and meant to be applied over masonary to allow moisture to evaporate out through the paint film, but not allow rain water into the masonary through the paint film, and therefore keep the masonary as dry as possible.

    There are quite a few differences in terminology for me to keep track of.
     
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