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Replacing a ceiling rose with spotlights

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by LondonUK, 7 Feb 2014.

  1. LondonUK

    LondonUK

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    Hi there,

    I just have a quick question regarding replacing a ceiling rose with these. I am in the UK.

    http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/9274370.htm

    I have a quick pic of the wiring for this light set here.

    [​IMG]

    Now here is the issue. We had the local sparky install them for us. Conveniently, today he isn't answering his phone.

    I am certain he has wired them up wrong.

    The first light went in the front room. The front room has two live (red), two neutral (black) and two earth (green).

    He simply put both live wires in the connector marked L, both neutral in the connector marked N and both earth in the middle connector.

    Light went on, no problem or so we thought.

    The issue came when he installed the lighting in the second room. That has three red, three neutral and three earth. Now I am not an electrician but obviously, the third wires do something.

    So at first, he puts all three live together, all three neutral and all three earth. Everything worked, we were happy but then an hour later, the lights go off.

    We called him back and he says it is a dodgy light socket. We think hmm, ok but we had a spare so he put that on. The wiring is clearly wrong because when the switched is turned on, it trips the circuit breaker and takes out the front room light.

    We called again and this time, he is on the phone speaking to someone and he ends up putting the three live wires into a choc block, three earth into the earth connector and then two neutral into the neutral with one further neutral presumably the switch live into the live connector. It did not work.

    He popped out to the van and disappeared! We've yet to pay him. We aren't going to in fact. I've got all his details even his NAPIT details and will follow it up.

    Does this guy have a clue what he is doing? It doesn't appear so to me.

    What is the correct way this should be wired? I am going to get out another guy recommended by my mate but I want to make sure this time it is done correctly.

    With the first light (two of each colour wire), how should the wiring go?

    With the second light (three of each colour wire), how should the wiring go?

    Armed with this knowledge, I will at least be able to verify the next electrician knows what he is doing.

    As of right now, the front room lights work but the second room lights has no socket on the wall, no light on the ceiling and just an hour ago, the front room lights tripped the breaker! So the powers been turned off for the bottom floor because there is no point taking any risks.

    Anyway that post is long enough. Any help or pointers would be much appreciated. While I will always use qualified people for the job, any information that stops me being led up a blind alley is very useful.

    Thank you :)
     
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  3. jtonline

    jtonline

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    Hmm... Step 2 of the manufacturer's instructions state "Identify and make note of the wiring for reconnection later" and Step 4 "Check that... You have correctly identified the house wires" neither of which your tradesperson appears to have done.

    I think the traditional loop circuit would mean at the front room light fitting you should have a single black (neutral) in the neutral connector, two sleeved green/yellow (earth) in the earth connector, a single black (hopefully with a red sleeve on it) into the switched live connector, and two reds either side of the 4th block in the light fitting provided for loop termination.

    I think the second room should have 2 blacks in the neutral connector, 3 green/yellow in the earth, 3 reds in the loop termination & 1 black (hopefully with a red sleeve on it) in switched live.

    A bit of voltage/continuity testing may be required to identify which wires are the switched lives.

    If I've got anything wrong I'm sure a trained electrician will post shortly to put me right :)
     
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  4. LondonUK

    LondonUK

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    Thanks for your reply. There are no red sleeves on the neutrals but with the power off, I have been using a multimeter switched to Ohms mode to test the cables.

    Two register 1 Ohm with no deviation when the switch is turned on and one registers a big leap when the switch is turned on. That must be the switched live and I've now taped that to identify it.

    What you're saying makes a lot of sense and seems to be the way I was hoping it was with the ceiling rose setup.

    Obviously I will not take any risks.

    Do you think I need to get a new light switch too? With the other room, the light switching on and off didn't change the Ohms reading at all. It just stayed high. I am guessing that light switch is blown now.
     
  5. PrenticeBoyofDerry

    PrenticeBoyofDerry

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    A standard ceiling rose loop would look something like this.


    These are the new harmonized colours, you will likely have red (line) as the brown and black (neutral) as the blue.

    You need to identify which black is the switch live as yours is not sleeved.
    If you isolate circuit, then test it is dead using an approved voltage indicator (multimeter should have a means of testing AC voltage).
    Once proved dead, remove all blacks from the neutral terminal, then test them one by one, with the switched closed/on position for low ohms continuity> Test between black and the reds (live loop terminal).
    Two of the blacks should read an open circuit 0 ohms, then the other should read a closed circuit, this would be a positive number and could be normally anything between 0.01 ohms and 7.00 ohms, this would be your switch live on a standard ceiling rose loop-in circuit!
    Once found mark it up for identification purposes!
    The two other black would go to the neutral terminal, the switch live to the live terminal and reds would stay together in the loop terminal. And don't forget to connect up all the CPC/earths at the earth terminal.
    But not all circuits are looped in at the ceiling rose, some are junction box looped within the ceiling void and some are looped at the switching point.
    But your alleged (clueless) electrician should be aware of this! Obviously he had this signage on his van also?

     
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  6. LondonUK

    LondonUK

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    Thanks for your reply. I am trying to find the switched live right now. I have put in a new socket to try to get something but now I get nothing. Even though I marked the switch live, it is giving me nothing now.

    About 2 hours ago, I had a reading but the switch on the wall kept the reading even when switched off.

    It looks like my wires are dead which stuns me since nothing has changed since two hours ago.

    Is it safe to put the two wires together at the switch end and check for Ohms that way? At least if I can isolate the problem it would be easier to sort.
     
  7. jtonline

    jtonline

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    Once you've proved the circuit is dead it's safe to join the wires at the switch end and test for continuity.

    Who put the light fittings on the ceiling? If it was the electrician who came to wire them up, it wouldn't surprise me to find he's put a screw through a wire.

    I thought you were getting another electrician in to sort it all out for you?
     
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  9. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    Not possible if switch is working properly.
    Dont forget you will get A reading - higher ohms - through other lamps.

    Not sure what you mean.

    With the power off, yes but that is the same as the switch being closed (assuming it is working and connected properly).

    However, it is best to verify for certain by turning the switch of and on to see the continuity being broken as you do it.
     
  10. LondonUK

    LondonUK

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    I worked it out. Silly me. One switched live was leading from the second room to the front room. That was the one I incorrectly marked the switch live. When I switched the front room light on and off, the second room wire would beep with Ohms.

    The second room had another wire and that was liked to it's own switch. So both switched lives are verified as working.

    The electrician came back today and wired it up as you guys said after I told him he is dangerous but it is still not working. I asked where his van was and he said in a car park in Halfords. I thought hmmm and so I text a mate who lives opposite. No van in sight! I think he came in a car. An unmarked car but his ID seems legit. So I've reported him.

    This is one thing I wanted to run by you. Say the wires are not long enough, can you connect two earth wires to the longest earth wire and then run that to the new light? I thought piggybacking three loads on one wire is asking for trouble.
     
  11. LondonUK

    LondonUK

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    I just had a qualified verified sparky fix it all for me. I had wired it up and he said I did a perfect job -- which means you guys did a perfect job of telling me.

    Why it was not working was a wire had been cut! By the moron posing as an electrician. I confronted him and he said he used to be. USED TO BE! Not having that and will pursue this.

    The wire that had been cut was of course shorting and thus it was never going to wok without realising that.

    Many thanks to you guys for helping with this :)
     
  12. jtonline

    jtonline

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    So I wasn't far off when I said screwed through a wire ;)
    Pleased to read you've got it all sorted.
     
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  13. winston1

    winston1

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    Just read through this sad story and glad it is now working, but, you do realise don't you that this fitting takes 300 watts and the one in the second room another 300 watts. That's an awful lot of energy just to light two rooms.

    You probably had something like a 60 watt bulb or 11 watt CFL before. I would get those GU 10 lamps replaced with LEDs quick.
     
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  14. LondonUK

    LondonUK

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    You were right Jules :)

    Winston, welcome to the thread :)

    It does seem like a lot of light but the ceilings are high over 10 feet and both rooms are 20 feet+ long and each light is the only lighting in the room. It seems really nice, not too bright and no dark spots.

    I'd totally agree with you in smaller rooms though, this would be overkill.
     
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