Metal ceiling light rose with no earth

[braw]

Hi folks,

I've been fitting a new ceiling light today; a fancy one from Habitat, which has brought some issues. Firstly the ceiling had two three core cables, one from the mains and one from the light switch. The Habitat light has two core (although it's metal casing) but is double insulated but doesn't have a ceiling rose setup like most. It's got a white terminal box with output for live neutral and earth. Fine. But to get the loop working from the mains to the switch with this light I removed the terminal box from the supplied light (leaving me with two core cable to the fitting) and then I connector blocked the wires from the 2 x three core cables from the ceiling so I'm left with a live and a neutral that can now be connected to the live and neutral from the light. I will include photos below.

The only issue I have now is when I pack these wires back into the metal casing is that there is no earth connected from the ceiling to the metal casing in case of a fault. How should I do this? Have I done anything wrong? Any advice would be appreciated.

Ceiling wires when I took off old ceiling rose

Terminal box on new light cable (which I removed leaving me with the two live and neutral wires)

How it currently looks with the connector blocks (this setup is right, the live and neutral from the new light cable with the terminal box they supplied removed connects to these connector blocks - checked the light works with this but worry is the lack of earth wire to metal casing (see below))

This is the light; see the top ceiling rose. This is where the wires are tucked into but it's copper so my worry is the lack of earth.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If the light itself is class II - double insulated - then you do not and must not earth it.

However, the top part would seem to be a different matter if it houses the connector block.
How is it attached to the ceiling?

Do I see a hole for fixing to a bracket (or is it just the picture)?

 

[braw]

There's a metal plate to screw into the ceiling which then I attach two screws to the plate.

I think it has the double insulated symbol on the light because it gave me the junction box and rubber sleeve to protect everything in but I had to remove as the setup was more complicated but found a photo from this forum of what I believe made it 'double insulated'.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think the DI part can only apply to the actual light part.

That the connector has three blocks is suspicious.
I don't consider that DI.

You could attach the CPCs(earth wires) to the bracket to ceiling screw with a ring crimp

or between washers.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But to get the loop working from the mains to the switch with this light I removed the terminal box from the supplied light (leaving me with two core cable to the fitting)

Why?

Have I done anything wrong?

Yes, you dismantled the light connections for no reason.

How it currently looks with the connector blocks (this setup is right, the live and neutral from the new light cable with the terminal box they supplied removed connects to these connector blocks

And the reason you couldn't have simply put those conductors into the terminal block on the light, rather than remove that and use your own pieces of choc-block was what, exactly?

This is where the wires are tucked into but it's copper so my worry is the lack of earth.

Wouldn't have been a worry if you'd left the connections alone.

I think it has the double insulated symbol on the light because it gave me the junction box and rubber sleeve to protect everything in but I had to remove as the setup was more complicated

I can't see why you needed to remove anything.

But now that you have, as you realise, it's no longer double insulated. But nor does it have any provision for earthing, as it was never intended to be earthed because the designers never imagined that someone would remove their DI terminal block, discard the sleeving, etc.

Put it all back together, use the terminal block and sleeving as you are supposed to, and put your connectors for the lighting loop and earth etc in a choc-box inside that copper cover - looks like there should be room. Don't leave any unsheathed cores exposed.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Looks like that grommet on the original block is intended to take 1 piece of flex rather than 2 pieces of twin and earth. The pic of the supplied block is out of focus so can't see if the cores from the fitting are labelled. Were there any instructions (or nasty pictograms) with the thing. And your pics are confusing- is that last (blurry) pic of a terminal block from your fitting or a random one?

Anyway, if the fitting really is double insulated then there should be no earth connection to it. EFLI's suggestion of a ring crimp to the bracket is very appropriate, I'd add a short piece of 2 core 1.0mm flex joined to your live and neutral feeds (use one of the choc block cases) and then stick that through the grommet into the supplied box, terminate, lid on and gone.

 

[securespark]

But to get the loop working from the mains to the switch with this light I removed the terminal box from the supplied light (leaving me with two core cable to the fitting)

Why?

Because manufacturers who insist on using these terminal boxes are the spawn of the devil, especially when they know it is not fit for purpose. After all, most fittings are fed by 2 or more flat twin and earth cables.

Manufacturers must realise this is the case, but wash their hands of the situation by providing the Cheapest And Nastiest Terminal Block Possible that makes the connection double insulated.

Have I done anything wrong?

Yes, you dismantled the light connections for no reason.

There was good reason.
Are you saying the manufacturer should expect the fitter to extend the T&E in flex then join that with the CANTBP?
Or provide another solution because the manufacturers cannot be bothered?

How it currently looks with the connector blocks (this setup is right, the live and neutral from the new light cable with the terminal box they supplied removed connects to these connector blocks

And the reason you couldn't have simply put those conductors into the terminal block on the light, rather than remove that and use your own pieces of choc-block was what, exactly?

Have you tried this?

Unfortunately, neither have the manufacturers or else they would not continue to connect the CANTBP to their products.

This is where the wires are tucked into but it's copper so my worry is the lack of earth.

Wouldn't have been a worry if you'd left the connections alone.

No, but a whole myriad of other worries would have arisen.

I think it has the double insulated symbol on the light because it gave me the junction box and rubber sleeve to protect everything in but I had to remove as the setup was more complicated

I can't see why you needed to remove anything.

Really??

But now that you have, as you realise, it's no longer double insulated. But nor does it have any provision for earthing, as it was never intended to be earthed because the designers never imagined that someone would remove their DI terminal block, discard the sleeving, etc.

Of course, the designers NEVER IMAGINED THAT SOMEONE WOULD REMOVE THE CANTBP BECAUSE IT IS SO BEAUTIFULLY DESIGNED AND SO TOTALLY FIT FOR PURPOSE!!!

Fitting something so woefully inadequate and making the connection of the light fitting SEP is verging on the criminal.

Put it all back together, use the terminal block and sleeving as you are supposed to, and put your connectors for the lighting loop and earth etc in a choc-box inside that copper cover - looks like there should be room. Don't leave any unsheathed cores exposed.

There isn't room - do you think the manufacturers are so forward thinking?

 

[braw]

Hi all thanks for your replies.

@ban-all-sheds I completely understand but the setup they provided didn't fit with what I had. I had two three core cables coming from the ceiling that needed to be connected to that small terminal box and rubber sheath they provided. See the photo of the instructions and of the actual terminal block. With keeping the light setup I don't understand without using choc blocks how I could make this work?

@oldbutnotdead @EFLImpudence If I buy a piece of earth wire couldn't I attach a ring crimp to one end the other to the choc block with the earths from the ceiling then attach the ring crimp end to the ceiling rose screw that gets screwed into the bracket?

 

[sparkwright]

A lot of modern light fittings, usually from Ikea and places like that, look like they should be class 1 as they contain a lot of metal, but are marked double insulated and do not require earth.

In many cases I just can't not see why or how they can be double insulated.

I would say as long as you use that enclosed connector as supplied, and make sure there are no single insulated wires exposed within the base of the fitting, then you will have complied with the manufacturer's instructions.

On a previous topic, where i think you may have nabbed that other picture, I suggested not using the supplied connector - but here you must as I think otherwise you will compromise the double insulatedness (such as it it is) of this new fitting of yours.

You will struggle getting those wires into that connector. Stupid things.

 

[braw]

@securespark Thanks for the support; I'm totally with you on this. With all these wires coming from my ceiling trying to use what the manufacturer gave me just doesn't seem like it could work.

@sparkwright Thanks but you're right. I just can't fit the wires into that small connector they provided. Well, without using choc blocks and having some wires not double insulated then I'm unsure what I could do. See the photo below. On the live and neutral wires that have the choc blocks without anything going into them, I could put those into the connector they provided but what about the other wires being outside this?

 

[sparkwright]

Since you have a very large 'cup' on the fitting you could may be use a 'choc box' connector which is slightly larger than the current connector, but should fit.

These are a plastic enclosure with three or four connectors placed inside. Very similar to what you have. You may find one in B&Queue.

It wouldn't be the end of the world if the earths don't enter the box, though there should be room.

Either way, be certain you do connect the two earth wires together.

Be certain the grey sheath of the cables do pass through that sharp looking hole on the bracket on the ceiling. It may be an idea to fit a 20 mm grommet or similar round that hole.

As you can see, light fittings are very poorly designed.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

You can try and fix the ring crimp to that securing screw but it'll be a pain in the bum lining it all up. Better to put the crimp on the end of the 2 earths coming out of the ceiling and put one of the screws holding the bracket to the ceiling through the ring (one less piece of choc block and no need to remove the earth if you drop the fitting for maintenance).

Ahh, lovely pictograms- that fitting is wanting a (one) piece of flex through the grommet. Not useful in standard domestic setups.

 

[ericmark]

The junction box provided is required to make it double insulated in the rose. There are three options.
1) Get a larger JB to fit in the rose which will take all cables required.
2) Get a JB and connect all the wires in ceiling then hide it in ceiling so you have a single feed cable.
3) Replace the provided ceiling rose for one suitable for British wiring.

The LD MC11A Maestro Ceiling Master - Polished Brass
I would think these would look in keeping with the lamp and would also allow you to wire lamp without any weight and then simply plug in. It is suspended by a simple flex so any ceiling rose would do but looking at lamp the brass would look better.

I did not realise there were any Habitat shops left? Chester has been closed for ages they seem to at last be putting another shop in it's place.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

@ban-all-sheds I completely understand but the setup they provided didn't fit with what I had. I had two three core cables coming from the ceiling that needed to be connected to that small terminal box and rubber sheath they provided. See the photo of the instructions and of the actual terminal block. With keeping the light setup I don't understand without using choc blocks how I could make this work?

You would need your own connectors for the live loop and the earth. I meant the two I've ringed here:

If I buy a piece of earth wire couldn't I attach a ring crimp to one end the other to the choc block with the earths from the ceiling then attach the ring crimp end to the ceiling rose screw that gets screwed into the bracket?

Do you have a crimping tool? One like this:

not like this:

?

 

[braw]

Better to put the crimp on the end of the 2 earths coming out of the ceiling and put one of the screws holding the bracket to the ceiling through the ring (one less piece of choc block and no need to remove the earth if you drop the fitting for maintenance).

@oldbutnotdead That sounds like a plan! Thanks for all your help.

@ericmark Thanks for your help. I'm going to go with the solution that @oldbutnotdead has suggested but perhaps I could try to pick up a larger JB as well and make a decidion but I had trouble finding these at B&Q (a really big one too).

@ban-all-sheds I don't have either but what's the difference and what's the plan? I can get all I need. Thanks.