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Replacing bathroom extractor fan with in-line. Is this notifiable?

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by Milleniumaire, 12 Jul 2019.

  1. Milleniumaire

    Milleniumaire

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    Hi, as part of a bathroom renovation project, I'm looking to replace an existing ceiling extractor fan, which is wired into an isolation switch and the bathroom light switch.

    I will be replacing it with a TD SILENT in-line fan, which will sit in the loft space above the bathroom. A run on timer switch (RT5A) will also be connected between the existing isolation switch and the new in-line fan.

    The existing cables will be re-used as nothing changes and all wiring will be in the loft space.

    Does this work need to be certified?

    Thanks.
     
  2. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    That would not be notifiable. Indeed, even work on the existing fan would not be notifiable if the ceiling were more than 2.25m above finished floor level.
    As above, what you are talking about would not be notifiable. However, strictly speaking, all electrical work should be 'certified' by the person who undertook it (whoever that might be, including yourself) with an Electrical Installation Certificate or Minor Electrical Works Certificate.

    Currents regs require any circuit 'supplying a bathroom' to be RCD-protected, although it may be debatable as to whether anything you are planning to do would be 'in the bathroom'. However, I do not doubt that some people would say that merely doing something electrically related to the bathroom lighting circuit would invoke the need for the circuit to be RCD protected.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  3. Milleniumaire

    Milleniumaire

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    Thanks for the prompt reply John.

    I assume this only relates to the ceiling fan?

    The bathroom currently has a central ceiling light and two wall lights and these will be replaced by some downlights. Despite being 2.25m above the finished floor level, I had assumed this work would need to be certified, so I was planning to engage an electrician to connect up the new lights, although I was going to cut the holes and run the cables myself as this requires working in tight spaces in the loft and so will be quite difficult and time consuming.
     
  4. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Electrical work in bathrooms is only notifiable if the work is in specified 'zones', and they stop 2.25m above finished floor level. So, if the ceiling is higher than that, any electrical work 'up there' (lights, fans, switches or whatever) is non-notifiable.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  5. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    Milleniumaire:

    You are confused, understandably,

    between notifiable work - which you must tell the Local Authority about before you start OR employ a registered electrician who can notify on completion -

    and certification which is the recording of test results of the work done.



    Unfortunately the powers that be decided to call self-notification by the registered electricians self-certification.
     
  6. jonbey

    jonbey

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    that's good to know - my ceiling is 2.5m. Need to upgrade a fan!
     
  7. Milleniumaire

    Milleniumaire

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    Yes you are correct, I hadn't appreciated the difference, but having re-read the answers I see that now.

    So, neither the fan replacement or lights replacement is notifiable, however, the work would need to be certified? I can understand the lighting changes requiring certification as new cables have to be run, but really, disconnecting a cable from one fan and connecting it to another requires certification? Is this a legal requirement?

    My understanding is that an electrician who can self certify MUST do the work themselves. I don't want to employ an electrician to switch the existing extractor fan for a new one, so if this work really does need to be certified is there any way I can do this myself and then get it tested?
     
  8. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Strictly speaking, any electrical work requires 'certification' (and the problem for nearly all DIYers is that certification theoretically requires testing that they will not be equipped to undertake). However, it is not a legal requirement (all the law requires is that the work should be done 'safely') - so, in situations such as you describe, common sense usually prevails!
    I think that you are again confusing notification and 'certification'. As EFLI has said, the confusion is exacerbated by the fact that "self-notification" by an electrician is called "self-certification"!

    Since none of the work you're talking about is notifiable, you do not need a 'self-notifying' electrician involved. As above, strictly speaking, any work should be 'certified', and that certification requires testing (which you would almost certainly not be equipped to do) - so it all comes down to how happy you are to (as most DIYers must do!) resort to 'common sense'. As above, there is no legal requirement for certification.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  9. Milleniumaire

    Milleniumaire

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    Thanks John.

    So, because the work isn't notifiable I could do it myself, but could I then arrange for an electrician to test the work and issue a certificate to say it is safe (assuming it was). Is testing other peoples work and issuing a certificate something an electrician is likely to agree to do?
     
    Last edited: 12 Jul 2019
  10. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    It is becoming increasingly difficult to respond to your questions 'in a public forum'. You could do as you suggest, but if the work concerned consisted of, say, "disconnecting a cable from one fan and connecting it to another!" (as you suggested) you might struggle to find an electrician who wanted to 'inspect and certify' it!

    Interestingly, if one really wants to do it, what you suggest is probably technically possible in relation to 'minor work'. Whereas the wording of an Electrical Installation Certificate (used for more major work) makes it clear that the declarations can only be signed by the person(s) who actually did the work (design, construction and testing), but the corresponding declaration on a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate appears to make no reference to who actually did the work ...

    upload_2019-7-12_16-6-17.png

    Having said that, whether or not anyone actually does (or tries to do) what you are suggesting is something upon which I could not comment!

    I have sent you a PM.

    Kind Regards, John
     
    Last edited: 12 Jul 2019
  11. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Anyone in England and Wales can undertake an electrical installation condition report (EICR) which is in practice the inspection and testing of an installation done by some one else. As to what the HSE would say if the person doing the report was not qualified or insured is some thing else, but it would only happen if some thing goes wrong, in real terms in a private house some one needs to die before they get involved.

    Scotland has slightly different rules, with rented property some qualification is require, but I don't really know exactly what is required.

    Where the work requires notifying the LABC can decide if they will allow some one to certify the work, and it seems the government has no idea of wording used for many years, with competent meaning the person can look after the safety of others as well as themselves and the IET/Bsi have now removed that word from their book to try to avoid confusion, certify is not so easy to remove from regulations, I do wonder if the whole idea was to word it so courts would need to decide at a latter date what it really means.

    In this country the Unions had some thing called a closed shop which allowed them to police to some extent who could call themselves electricians, however when this was made illegal, their ability to police was removed, so the Part P and the scheme operators replaces the unions, the scheme operators do in practice run a closed shop, but get away with it because in theory you can use LABC.

    In practice the LABC is so expensive it is not really an option for small jobs. The Part P law says you don't need to notify but you do need to follow one of the European regulations, it does not need to be BS7671 you could for example use the German regulations however I would find that hard since I don't read German. But in essence it says it needs to be safe.

    Remember Part L and other Parts of the building regulations must also be followed, they are just as bad as Part P to work out what you can do, so in real terms use common sense.
     
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