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Replacing ceiling rose with new fitting with L/N/E connector

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by DavidA1982, 29 Mar 2015.

  1. DavidA1982

    DavidA1982

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    Hi all.

    I'll start by saying that this question is covered in the wiki, but as that answer makes reference to red and black wires and seems to contradict what I understand are the requirements as regards inaccessible connections, so I thought I'd check.

    Anyway... I'm replacing a simple ceiling rose with a light fitting that has live, neutral and earth connectors. There are no installation instructions (thanks, Next). How on earth do I fit this?

    My initial reaction was that I'd need a 4-way junction box in the ceiling void: the cable that would normally feed the light would be wired in to a connector block, with the live, neutral and earth connectors of the light fitting also going to the connector block.

    Is that (broadly) right? If so, am I right in saying that I need to use a maintenance free junction box in the ceiling? I've got a bit of a problem if that's true because whilst I do have plenty of wago boxes and wago connectors, access to the area above the light is problematic.

    Am I going about this in the wrong way? Is there a really obvious solution that I'm not seeing?

    Thanks
     
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  3. PrenticeBoyofDerry

    PrenticeBoyofDerry

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    What coloured conductors do you have at the ceiling?
    How many are they?
    And how is it currently connected?


    Do you have something like this?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. DavidA1982

    DavidA1982

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    Thanks. Yes, that is exactly what I have currently. As I understand it, it is a typical ceiling rose for a light in the middle of a lighting circuit.
     
  5. PrenticeBoyofDerry

    PrenticeBoyofDerry

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    Okay, you have a live loop where all the browns are connected, these are terminated together in a 5A connector. They are not connected to your light fitting directly.

    Then the brown sleeved blue (switch live) is connected to Live side of the light fitting.
    All the remaining blues (neutrals) to the neutral side of light.
    And the green/yellows (earth/CPC) to earth terminal of light.

    If the light fitting ceiling plate/enclosure does not allow space for this connection, then your only option would be to fit a MF junction box above the light.
    Wagos to my knowledge are not MF approved.

    https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html
     
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  7. DavidA1982

    DavidA1982

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    Thank you... but I'm not sure it gets me any closer to solving my problem? Here is a picture of the new light fitting (well, the wires anyway. The light fitting itself is very elegant but you will have to take my word for it).


    I imagine putting these in to one end of some wago connectors and having the other end of the wago connectors connected to cable from a junction box in the ceiling.... but I can't get access to the ceiling so was wondering if there was a trick that I was missing? For the avoidance of doubt: the new light fitting is very narrow - It cannot be used over a typical ceiling rose.

    EDIT: Ah - you've edited your response. Thanks. I know that there is an ongoing debate about wagoboxes and whether they are maintenance free. I'm a civilian here so I'm not going to get involved (and I've never used one for an inaccessible connection), but I have to admit I thought that they would be OK. If you google "Wagobox", the first result is their website "Wagobox - the home of the maintenance free junction box". They also put the "MF" logo on the underside of the lids of the actual boxes. I thought that as long as you used the boxes along with the connectors (used properly), and fixed the box to the ceiling timbers with the little button they supply, it could be treated as a maintenance-free junction box. To be honest to put the matter beyond doubt I'd probably use one of the ones you linked to anyway as there is no doubt there, but the actual problem I have is that I cannot get access to the ceiling void to fit a junction box anyway!
     
  8. PrenticeBoyofDerry

    PrenticeBoyofDerry

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    Can you not conceal the connection within the light fitting?
    If not, you can only place the bulk of the wiring within the ceiling void.
    If you have no access from above you need to make access from below.
    Can you create a hole above the fitting in the ceiling, possibly one big enough to slip a MF junction box in?
     
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  9. DavidA1982

    DavidA1982

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    Actually... yes I probably could. I can certainly use wago connectors for that as it would be accessible; and they are tiny. I might well be able to do it that way! That's plan A.

    If Plan A doesn't work, then you are right - that is what I will have to do. No point in hoping that there is a better solution if there is not. I'll order one of those boxes you linked to, they look quite skinny. I thought I had to actually fix the box to the ceiling timber though (which is the problem) - I didn't think I could just shove it up there through the hole and then leave it at that.

    Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
     
  10. PrenticeBoyofDerry

    PrenticeBoyofDerry

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    The MF junction boxes are quite bulk actually.
    Length: -140mm
    Width: - 65mm
    Depth: - 30mm

    The Wago connectors providing no conductors are exposed, should be fine concealed within the light fitting.
    One problem being often the stranded cores of light flex, does often not grip inside these connectors.
    But you could always use the screw type connectors.

    If you do cut in to the ceiling and use a MF junction, you could always repair the hole made.
    As far as the box being screwed/fixed in place, ideally yes but the boxes have cable grips and I doubt much harm or stress will come to cable or terminations whilst resting on the ceiling.
     
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