Replacing Economy 7 spur with a 13A socket

[st07]

Sorry to be a pain, I'm just bumping my thread to try and get an answer as I'm looking to get this socket finished sometime today

The cable coming from the CU has now been confirmed as 2.5mm. Am I now allowed to wire directly from the socket circuit, as to make a spur?

Thanks

 

[BS3036]

If I understand you correctly, the old heater cable is 2.5mm² and you want to connect it to the normal CU on an existing ring final, which is the same ring being used on that floor; and replace the outlet plate with a 13A socket.

Assuming the cable is the same size as the two already in the 32A breaker - then it sounds fine to me.

(A real purist would say that you would need to add an RCD in the CU [and that this would then make it notifiable], but under the circumstances I think that's a bit of an extreme point of view.)

 

[st07]

Correct sir, and thanks for the reply

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A real purist would say that you would need to add an RCD in the CU [and that this would then make it notifiable], but under the circumstances I think that's a bit of an extreme point of view.)

An real purist?

Or someone who wants to comply with the Wiring Regulations?

OOI - which regulations are, in your opinion, only to be complied with by purists with an extreme POV?

 

[BS3036]

Wow - no need to get upset by the word purist!

My feeling was that it might be difficult to see how it changed the current situation. With no extra hidden cables, and a cable moved from one unprotected circuit to another. It doesn't exactly make it more dangerous.

And I did point it out.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My feeling was that it might be difficult to see how it changed the current situation.

convert the unused spur to a plug socket

411.3.3(i)

 

[BS3036]

Yes, I agree. It would then become the only socket in the house which was protected. So pragmatically many DIYers would do it.

However: sorry st07 but you can't do it as you will have to fit an rcd or rcbo, and (unless BAS accepts an RCD socket, and ignores moving the source of the cable) you will have to notify the local council who will make you pay a couple of hundred pounds, and then tell you that you need an electrician to give you a certificate which he will not be allowed to do by the rules of his scheme, so after a row with them, you will have to get an electrician in who can self certify, and have to pay him but you won't get your money back from the building control.

It's a good job you're squeeky clean, BAS, and never do any work in your house without notifying building control. Or I might think you have dual standards.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Don't try to change the subject to one of the Building Regulations.

411.3.3(i) is a Wiring Regulation.

Which regulations are, in your opinion, only to be complied with by purists with an extreme POV, and which can be ignored for new work as long as it's no less safe than what is already there?

 

[BS3036]

Whatever.

 

[bongos]

I'll never run a spur from the spur, if that makes sense, so the total load would never exceed 13A, but meh, I know there are proper ways of doing these things...

You may have one unfused spur from any point on your fing final circuit. I don't believe that this would be notifiable work as you're not creating a new circuit but simply adding a spur to an exisitng circuit.

However, I do believe that the new socket would have to be a RCD s/o, unless the ring final circuit you are connecting to is already RCD protected.

 

[ColJack]

an rcd socket complies with 411.3.3..

411.3.3 Additional protection

In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with Regulation 415.1 shall be provided for:

(i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20A that are for use by ordinary persons and are intended for general use, and
(ii) mobile equipment with a current rating not exceeding 32A for use outdoors.

An exception to (i) is permitted for:
(a) socket-outlets for use under the supervision of skilled or instructed persons, e.g. in some commercial or industrial locations, or
(b) a specific labeled or otherwise suitably identified socket-outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment.

it makes no mention of protecting the cable, and as it's existing cable do the regs that cover rcd protection of cables apply?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Whatever.

So you put forward a strange suggestion that you have to be a "purist" or have an "extreme point of view" to want to comply with the Wiring Regulations, when asked about that you try to change the subject to the Building Regulations, and when that diversion fails you say "whatever".

 

[ban-all-sheds]

as it's existing cable do the regs that cover rcd protection of cables apply?

Not in this case.

 

[st07]

However: sorry st07 but you can't do it as you will have to fit an rcd or rcbo, and (unless BAS accepts an RCD socket, and ignores moving the source of the cable) you will have to notify the local council who will make you pay a couple of hundred pounds............... <snip>

Hehe. I'm confident that the install is safe, so sod notifying the council for a lil job like this. It'll probably start a whole new topic and BAS will throw links at me left right and centre, but what exactly is 'notifiable work'? I understand that certain types of electrical work require you to notify the council, but is it a case of "oh hai, I live in xxx house, I'm about to run a new cable, just thought I'd let you know. Cheque is in the post, baiiii!" or....?

What happens if I carry out 'notifiable work' without notifying anyone? What are the ramifications etc?

However, I do believe that the new socket would have to be a RCD s/o, unless the ring final circuit you are connecting to is already RCD protected.

Hmm. I've got the socket up and running now, but for info the CU has an 80A RCD, supplying 5 MCB's, one of which is 32A and supplying the spurred socket and ring main sockets.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

what exactly is 'notifiable work'?

Basically you start with the position where absolutely everything is notifiable, and then you look through the list of types of work which are exempt.

Look at The Building Regulations, and search for 'Schedule 2B'.

For any work you want to do, start reading Schedule 2B until you find a match, in which case it's not notifiable. If you get to the end and don't find a match it is notifiable.

Your job of adding a socket, or a socket and an RCD FCU, would be non-notifiable via 2(c)(ii).

"oh hai, I live in xxx house, I'm about to run a new cable, just thought I'd let you know. Cheque is in the post, baiiii!" or....?

In theory, like any notifiable work, you submit an application for your plans to be approved. You would have to say how you planned to comply with Part P, at least. Other regs might also apply, depending on what you were doing.

Part P applies to any work whatsoever (i.e. not just notifiable work) on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which operate at low or extra-low voltage and are—
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.

The technical requirement is:

P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

Professional electricians, registered or not, will invariably choose to comply with BS 7671:2008, the IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition, as their route to compliance with P1.

Strictly speaking DIY compliance with BS 7671 is difficult because of the testing required, and the need to feel justified in certifying that your work complies, but it can be done.

In theory the council should inspect and test your work to the extent necessary for them to be happy that you have complied with P1, whereupon they would issue a Building Regulations completion notice.

And in theory that should all be paid for by your fee to them.

In practice many councils don't play by the rules, and you'll find more than enough examples and discussions of that in other topics.

What happens if I carry out 'notifiable work' without notifying anyone? What are the ramifications etc?

On the basis of what's happened so far, what happens regarding prosecution for contravening the Building Regulations is SFA. Nobody has ever heard of anyone being prosecuted just for failing to notify, not even tradesmen.

Rogue traders have been prosecuted, but that's always been in addition to other charges arising from awful work. Prosecutions for just failing to notify where nothing has gone t**s-up - zip so far.

There may also be a time limit of 6 months from the date of the offence for a prosecution to be brought. I say 'may' because I know they changed that limit, and the start of it to when the offence was detected, but it was only for a subset of contraventions, and I can neither remember which or be rsed to look right now - sorry.

But all of this can change at any time, past behaviour is no guide to future behaviour etc, and any decision to ignore the law can only be yours, nothing said here should ever be, or be construed as, advice to ignore it.


Ramifications could more realistically, and IMO increasingly likely as time goes by, problems when selling. Whether a formal part of a HIP or not, vendors are often asked if there's been any work done which required BR approval, and if so where's the completion notice.

At this point you really can't lie, as then you're entering the wonderful world of fraud, so you have to fess up. Will the LABC Blue boys break down your door? See above, but I doubt it.

So in terms of yor sale, it might only cost you the price of a PIR, and a slight delay, or a bolshie buyer in a buyers market might go "Ooh - stick" and proceed to beat you with it.

the CU has an 80A RCD

What's the trip rating? It should say (hopefully) 30mA.

I trust you press the test button regularly? There's a scarily high failure rate of in-service RCDs which are not exercised.