Rip off alarm companies

[opps]

Hi there

For the last couple of years we have been deflecting small claims court threats from our alarm company.

We are supposed to pay an annual maintenance charge but are refusing to on a number of grounds.

To begin with they changed the number that the modem dials without having the decency to tell us. We had been paying 7p each time we armed or disarmed the alarm (an average of 4 calls per day). Now we pay 70p each time, after they moved us onto a 090 number.

I am assuming that this was done at the time of the last "service". If so it is even more galling because I asked the engineer if a 0800 number existed and he told me that I was lucky that I was not on one of the 090 numbers.

It was during the service that the firm decided to fit one of the two pet sensors that we had been promised 6 years earlier as part of the initial install (non pet friendly sensors having been fitted at that time). Whilst swapping out the sensor he noticed that the lounge sensor had never been active/online.

Although I am annoyed that it seems likely that he changed the modem dial up number at least he is the first competent engineer that we have had for years- the previous one forgot to tell the monitoring station that he was testing the alarm and the old bill turned up after he tested the panic button. He failed to notice that if you open the roller shutter on the garage (something we seldom do) then the alarm starts bleeping (still does).

Our fire sensors trip if you forget to turn the cooker hood on when boiling a pan of potatoes and although we reset the alarm at our end and all shows as fine we have discovered that it has been showing as on-fire at the monitoring station some weeks later.

Infact the sensor upstairs went off last week after a shower (for the first time ever) and it is still refusing to reset so we are unable to set the alarm.

I appreciate that I need to phone the alarm company to come out and tamper with the fire sensor so that it will not lock in the open position anymore but the area manger is a muppet. He refuses to answer direct questions, eg why was the number changed? and replies that our telco should be charging per second even though I keep telling him that both virgin media and bt retail charge per minute.

Frankly I would be happy to walk away from the contract if they would just give us the alarm system that we paid for all those years ago but they wont do that until we pay them for the services that have never been done and they are unwilling to refund us any of the money for increased phone charges. They have suggested moving us onto an ip based system (at a cost!!!).

At a rough estimation they are losing £300 in service charges but we are paying an extra £900 in phone charges

This is a large national company that has been busy buying smaller firms over the years. Our alarm was initially with a small firm in watford before they were taken over.

My questions are:

1. Is it legal for them to have changed the number with out telling us?

2. Do they get some of the money from the call charges?

3. Should fire sensors be cleaned during the service and is this why they seem to be going off more often?

4. At the time of installation I did ask for a rate of rise sensor in the lounge next to the kitchen rather than an ionising smoke sensor, I got the latter. Would the former be permissible or does it have to be the latter?

5. Can we just switch to another firm or do we need them to provide the engineer codes (I think the alarm is a meridian or something similar).

Sorry about the ranty nature of this post but I am becoming increasingly despondent and pi$$ed off.

Thanks in advance.

 

[mattylad]

A lot depends upon what your contract says.

As it's outside the normal 12 months minimum then you usually have a perido of notice that you can give to them to bugger off.

You then need to find someone else to take over.

I take it that this is not an ordinary domestic/house alarm then.

Where are this company based? any clues on who they are without direct naming?

 

[scott1980]

Hi there

My questions are:

1. Is it legal for them to have changed the number with out telling us?

Probably not illegal, but perhaps slightly unethical not to mention it.


2. Do they get some of the money from the call charges?

Depends which company it is. As you mention it is a national alarm co, these usually have their own Alarm Recieving Centre, so yes, they could be getting some of the money

3. Should fire sensors be cleaned during the service and is this why they seem to be going off more often?

Depends on the age really. If they are more than 4 or 5 years old, cleaning them out won't do any harm. The false alarms could be cause by a change in environmental conditions, dust build up, old age (ionisation detectors don't last forever)

4. At the time of installation I did ask for a rate of rise sensor in the lounge next to the kitchen rather than an ionising smoke sensor, I got the latter. Would the former be permissible or does it have to be the latter?

A rate of rise heat detector will take quite a long time to react to a fire, which in the case of a smouldering fire would not be quick enough in a domestic property. If it's not in a kitchen or very close to a kitchen, optical/ionisation smoke detectors will give earlier warning than a heat detector. Optical smoke detectors are generally less susceptible to nuisance alarms caused by steam and cooking fumes, so might be worth looking at changing your ionisation detectors for opticals

5. Can we just switch to another firm or do we need them to provide the engineer codes (I think the alarm is a meridian or something similar).

Most decent alarm companies should be able to take over your system without an engineer code, but you need to check your agreement with your current maintainer to see who owns the kit and how long you need to give them notice before you cancel

Sorry about the ranty nature of this post but I am becoming increasingly despondent and p**sed off.

Thanks in advance.

 

[opps]

Thanks Scott

1- perhaps I should get a 090 number as my contact number and ask them to phone me back (regularly).

2- I am inclined to think that they must be using their own centre as there would have been less incentive to change our number. Am I correct in assuming that this could not have been done remotely? I am also of the opinion that they must have had a policy of changing other peoples numbers without telling them- thus the unwillingness to answer direct email questions about it.

3- Ok- wasn't sure if you are supposed to do smoke tests or anything like that- if they had then they would have noticed that 2 of the sensors were set to not be reset-able by us the customer.

4- fair enough re the rate of rise, the sensor is 2m from the kitchen door.

5- I assume that we own the alarm- it cost us about £1700 for installation and when any thing fails we have to pay parts and labour, eg the two replacement modems that kept interrupting phone calls in the first three years.


Friends that I have spoken to are under the impression that their monitored alarms have no impact on their phone bills- are they deluded or on free phone numbers? Is it common to use premium rate numbers?

Thanks for your answers and help

I know jack all about alarms- this is the only one that we have ever had and we went with a small local company because we wanted to help local firms and hoped that the relationship would be more personal, which it was until they were swallowed up. I must say that the installation with regard to drilling for the wiring was extremely impressive

 

[opps]

Hi Mattylad

It is a normal house but initially we had a small office in the garage so we had it set up so that sections of the house could be split into zones, eg someone could use the key fob in the garage to disarm the kitchen and garage whilst leaving the rest of the house alarmed.

I think that from day one this presented problems because they had never had to deal with such a set up.

The garage is now just where the server pc and my power tools live.

I would rather not have the whole thread deleted so I will reply again in another post in the hope that if the moderators are unhappy they will delete that section rather than the whole thing.

Cheers

 

[opps]

The original firm in watford were one dimension lower than time.

The new company share initials with what was once deemed to be the poor relation of the RAC. The first part of the name would suggest that they were possibly the forth person on earth. They are based in one of those places that Americans have problems pronouncing.

Hope this helps but is not so obvious that it gets deleted.

Have you had any negative feedback about them.

 

[mattylad]

I have no idea who your on about
(over my head - or maybe its just late in the evening )

If your paying that much then IMO your paying way too much.
May be time to contact other alarm monitoring companies and see what they charge etc. It may cost a lot less for them to come in & redo the whole shebang & monitor for the year than what your currently paying.

 

[breezer]

Commercial premises monitored alarms do have what is called open / close, as the name suggests when you do open or close it phones up to say so.

Over the years most alarm companies have changed to a premium rate number.

The smaller alarm companies have had no choice because the Alarm Recieving Centre (ARC) they use may have opted to change to premium rate numbers, and to change ARC's costs a fortune

Well why not have an 0800 number? Simple they are NOT free.
Most phone supplies will let you have an 0800 number, but it has to be paid for, so its not free. The caller pays nothing for that call, but the money is claimed back by adding it to what ever that company sells.

E.g., i have an 0800 number to tempt you to call me, i sell insurance, i add the cost of my 0800 numbers to everyones premium. so it looks free, but it isnt.


(Please note the above statement is purely an example, i don't sell insurance)

Most big alarm companies have their own ARC

Never assume that because you paid money that the equipment belongs to you. Never assume anything. As some one else said, read the small print in your contract.

You mention small office being there from day 1

Having an office makes it a commercial property, so you will have (as i said earlier) Open / close signals. If that office is no longer an office (you said just for server and power tools storage) Why not tell them you no longer have a commercial premises, so no longer require open / close.

(I dont know which alarm company it is either)

But there are always 2 points of view.

Its not their fault you no longer have an office and so are no longer commercial premises

4. At the time of installation I did ask for a rate of rise sensor in the lounge

But you said

..........I know jack all about alarms- this is the only one that we have ever had

hmmmmm

 

[bernardgreen]

The alarm company will almost certainly be getting an income from the 090 phone calls.

Calls to 090 numbers "must have the bill payer's permission" so if the alarm company made this change without your permission then the telephone premium rate call watchdog may be able to support you in a claim against the alarm company. But check the small print of the contract as there may be a clause which gives the permission.

 

[opps]

Hi Mattylad

Sorry if i was being too esoteric- think biblically- the 4th person on the earth was the second child of Adam and Eve and was killed by his brother...

 

[opps]

Hi breezer

I accept your point about the free phone number- however it doesn't justify moving someone from a 0870 number to a 090 number. IMHO this is more than a simple bait and switch 5 yrs down the line.

Further, for them to repeatedly tell me that we are billed per second on the 1000% more expensive number, even when we explain that we do not have business phone lines is a feeble and inacurate retort.

They are aware that they have increased the annual cost of ownership by £900 yet are unwilling to revert back to the old number and have only offered moving us on to an ip based solution. This would be chargable and only done once we pay the arrears for the maintainance services which have not been undertaken anyway.

This would be like me being hired by you to decorate your lounge. Whilst there I remember that a mate gives me commission to push his very expensive carpet. Without asking you I decide to rip up and replace your carpet and fit his. You decide that you were perfectly happy with your old carpet and refuse to pay the balance on the bill. I offer to take the old carpet away but insist on charging you to fit a laminated floor.

I accept that that might not be the best example but it is early morning and I have only had 1 ciggy and 1 cup of tea so far.

When I said that I know nothing about alarms I should have mentioned that yes I have had those battery powered fire alarms that go off when you leave the toast in too long. Hence being corrected by Scott re the rate of rise sensor.

I hadn't realised that in commercial properties the open/close is standard but they were aware that we no longer use the garage commercially prior to them changing the number. They have not offered moving us away from the open close- i suspect that if they were to they would increase our annual fee. Virgin told me that the alarm compnay get about 60% of the call charges.

Cheers

 

[opps]

Thanks Bernard

I had forgotten about the permission issue. That looks very promising.

Many thanks

 

[youtekkinthepish]

I have no idea who your on about
(over my head - or maybe its just late in the evening )

If your paying that much then IMO your paying way too much.
May be time to contact other alarm monitoring companies and see what they charge etc. It may cost a lot less for them to come in & redo the whole shebang & monitor for the year than what your currently paying.

They have a large Office in Leicester

 

[mattylad]

Hi Mattylad

Sorry if i was being too esoteric- think biblically- the 4th person on the earth was the second child of Adam and Eve and was killed by his brother...

Adam & Eve had kids?

OMG! thats news to me

"I don't know who it is - so no need for more cryptic clues - lol"

If it is now just a domestic property, why does it need to be monitored?
Do you have big problems with people breaking in.

 

[breezer]

they were aware that we no longer use the garage commercially prior to them changing the number.

have you put it to them in writing stating that you are no longer opps incorporated ltd and sons just Mr opps? and as such you do not require open and close