Rising damp does not exist

[KonradFischer]

@Softus: Lovely! With such guys like you England would rule the world again, but I suppose, you're only a one man show

Yours sincerely!

Konrad

 

[Softus]

I don't think I deserve that praise from such an esteemed analyst

I'll be coming to Germany in June this year (I'll be one of the quiet ones) - if I get a chance I'll be visiting some of your country's finest towns and buildings

 

[anobium]

sofus wrote

Oh deary me - this is far harder than it really should be.

It really isn't if you pay attention.

sofus wrote

I've never pretended to have more experience than any other houseowner, so I don't know why you thought otherwise. This doesn't mean that you can blind me with science, because I'm a scientist, and a more than averagely open-minded one. One advantage that I have of not working in the damp-proofing or the renovating industries is that I have no axe to grind. Anyone who works as a surveyor or damp-proofer cannot make the same claim to independence.

Oh come now Softus you are doing yourself an injustice.I mean all the posts and links you have read. I think you have a little more knowledge on this subject than the average houseowner.
Where did I a humble layman try and blind you , a scientist, with science.?
BTW what proof have you that you are more open minded than the averagely open minded scientist.?
I accept your point about independence but I do not work in the industry unlike Konrad Fischer who case you appear to be supporting


sofus wrote

So, no "rotting damp" then? Or flooding - doesn't that make a building particularly moist

Rotting damp! Please clarify
Flooding see penetrating damp
Your not really concentrating are you


sofuswrote

Maybe so, but why would I accept that rising damp exists without evidence in support of it?

Open your mind
Common scenario
Internal dividing wall in house , no water or central heating pipes attached to wall or in immediate vicinity.
Skirting boards attached to wall and the ends only of the joists bearing into both sides of the wall are decayed due to wet rot fungus.
What else could possibly have caused the decay
sofus wrote

You would only have been surprised if you had a pre-conception of how much you expected to find - not a very scientific approach IMHO.

I don't profess to be a scientist but it shows that the method is more accurate than any other. Of course you can have pre conceived idea of the outcome but what it shows is that the final outcome rests on the laboratory analysis
sofus wrote

don't know if it proves or disproves it. Why don't you explain, for everyone's benefit, why you think it equates to the condition of rising damp, through brickwork?

On this point I would refer you to the B R E Digest 245
sofus wrote

So now we're getting somewhere. You give an example of a Victorian property. You say that various method were use to cure a rising damp problem, but you haven't said what those methods were or how you determined that the problem was one of rising damp.

You really are not concentrating are you I said that two methods had been used to try and solve the problem.
Silicone injection and electro osmosis
The problem was was identified by the process of elimination and the carbide tests as previously indicated

Mm, hmm. So, what was the wall contruction and the wall covering, both inside and outside?

Now we are geting pedantic
sofus wrote

You may indeed suggest it, but does this mean that you don't consider yourself capable of documenting an independant analysis of your findings?

You really are something else. One minute you are asking for an independant analysis and then you come out with this question
Have a nice day

 

[Softus]

Oh deary me - this is far harder than it really should be.

It really isn't if you pay attention.

Hmm.

I've never pretended to have more experience than any other houseowner...

Oh come now Softus you are doing yourself an injustice.I mean all the posts and links you have read. I think you have a little more knowledge on this subject than the average houseowner.

You might insist, but nonetheless I claim my right to modesty.

Where did I a humble layman try and blind you , a scientist, with science.?

I don't know - you tell me
Equally, where did I say that you tried to?

BTW what proof have you that you are more open minded than the averagely open minded scientist.?

I don't offer any proof, and I don't really feel the need to. If you've read what I've written and you decide that I'm prejudiced and/or closed-minded, then I'm content that you have exercised your right to hold an independent, albeit inexplicable, opinion.

I accept your point about independence but I do not work in the industry unlike Konrad Fischer who case you appear to be supporting

That's cool - I didn't intend to imply that you aren't independent, or that Konrad is.

So, no "rotting damp" then? Or flooding - doesn't that make a building particularly moist

Rotting damp! Please clarify

Sure - this was simply an act of teasing

Flooding see penetrating damp

I don't see any.

Your not really concentrating are you

Tra, la-la, la-la, mmm, fish fingers. Sorry - what were you saying?

Maybe so, but why would I accept that rising damp exists without evidence in support of it?

Open your mind

Ready.

Common scenario
Internal dividing wall in house , no water or central heating pipes attached to wall or in immediate vicinity.
Skirting boards attached to wall and the ends only of the joists bearing into both sides of the wall are decayed due to wet rot fungus.
What else could possibly have caused the decay

I presume you mean that you believe it was caused by rising damp through the brickwork. However, I remain open-minded, because you haven't explained how you eliminated the possibility of it being caused by rising damp between the surface of the brick layer of the wall and its covering layer.

You would only have been surprised if you had a pre-conception of how much you expected to find - not a very scientific approach IMHO.

I don't profess to be a scientist but it shows that the method is more accurate than any other. Of course you can have pre conceived idea of the outcome but what it shows is that the final outcome rests on the laboratory analysis

I'm bamboozled by this - does it make any kind of point? If so, please could you restate it?

don't know if it proves or disproves it. Why don't you explain, for everyone's benefit, why you think it equates to the condition of rising damp, through brickwork?

On this point I would refer you to the B R E Digest 245

That's it?! That's your answer?! That's your explanation of how damp rises through brickwork, after all these posts and questionably successful attempts to ridicule me?!

I am, quite frankly, surprised, and not a little disappointed in you.

So now we're getting somewhere. You give an example of a Victorian property. You say that various method were use to cure a rising damp problem, but you haven't said what those methods were or how you determined that the problem was one of rising damp.

You really are not concentrating are you I said that two methods had been used to try and solve the problem.
Silicone injection and electro osmosis
The problem was was identified by the process of elimination and the carbide tests as previously indicated

Mm, hmm. So, what was the wall construction and the wall covering, both inside and outside?

I've nothing to add to the question that you've failed to answer.

Now we are geting pedantic

Great minds think alike! Or were you using the "Royal We"?

You really are something else. One minute you are asking for an independant analysis and then you come out with this question

Damn I'm good

Have a nice day

Why thank you - I did. I visited my mother, we had a nice lunch, and she was most appreciative. I sincerely hope that your day had a similarly pleasurable outcome.

 

[Frederick]

Konrad,

It looks like you used fresh mortar in your experments. This would not be a fair test as the free lime will block the pores through which damp can rise. In fact, it is well known that it is difficult to get rising damp to occur through fresh mortar. If you get a big chunk of Victorian mortar and put that in water you will see that it soaks up water with ease.

 

[Softus]

Frederick - an interesting point. I have two questions:

1. Is the increased porosity of old mortar 'compatible' with the pores in the old bricks? I ask because of a point that Konrad made earlier, viz:

what is with the capillarity between fine pores of brick and all sorts of stones and the rough pores of mortar? Who can proof the evidence of capillar transaction here, the only presupposition of RD?

2. Have you seen the action of RD in an old wall with old mortar, or are you theorising about the effect of old mortar based on what you've seen with mortar when it's not within a wall?

 

[KonradFischer]

OK, once again, the historic Town Hall of Bamberg:

It's not Victorian, it's much older.

What should be wrong with Victorian mortar? Besides it is filled up with faecal salts, perhaps. And this is the most common answer for damp walls inside. Often in my projects I found out, that once a little ocean of cloak water filled up the cellars by accident. Or caused by some animals like chickens, goats, dogs, which lived there earlier, maybe only in very cold winters (which really existed in Victorian and earlier times). And then the excrements salts (nitrites) are in the inner walls also.

No rising damp at all, but sometimes rising sh*t, not only in foreign countries.

PS @ Softus: I hope to see you during your travel through my country.

 

[noseall]

rising damp is two things.....

1. a phrase made up by building societies and their surveyors so that they and chemical companys and their associated damp proof injection "experts" can fleece home buyers out of their hard earned cash.

2. an hilarious comedy show on tele starring Leonard Rossiter!

 

[KonradFischer]

So you mean the 'rising damp phrase' in buildings would be an awful tragedy, isn't it? I agree.

 

[joe-90]

What's a matter with you people? I live in an area where rising damp is everywhere. I'll take some photos when I get around to it. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Have you seen a Giant Panda in the wild? No? I don't suppose they exist then?


joe

 

[Dellsmp]

No-one is denying that 'damp' exists, the question is does rising damp exist? and there have been many scientific tests which 'prove' it doesn't. Therefore all damp problems should be able to be explained by finding the source of the dampness or apparrant damage to brickwork assumed to be caused by damp.
See Konrads posts for explanations.

 

[Softus]

Does anyone out there have any real-life examples of rising damp caused ONLY by a failed DPC in the wall? If so, please can you help me understand how it happens/happened?

It amazes me that people deny the occurance of rising damp just because they haven't seen it. I've never seen a wild Giant Panda or Orangutang - but I don't doubt their existance.

In the area where I live there is plenty of rising damp. All you have to do is look at garden walls etc and you will see the 'spalling' from frost damage and can see the hygroscopic salts in layers up the wall. Below the salt level the bricks are a darker colour than above.

It's just plain daft to say it doesn't exist just because you've never seen it.
I guess some bricks are more prone to it than others. These are Victorian bricks from a local quarry and are rather soft.

Have you ever seen a giant panda? Do they esist?

I have a garden wall spalled to hell, reason? water runs down it when it rains NOTHING to do with rising damp. I have a house wall 7metres high , some of the bricks are spalling, why? you guessed it, R A I N W A T E R. It is NOT rising damp. Now listen to Konrad, he seems to know quite a lot more than most of us. I take it the sun goes out at night, just because you haven't seen it.

Konrad can say that he's never seen rising damp. I've never seen a wild panda. He cannot say that it doesn't exist just because it beyond his experience in the world.

Er, yes he can, especially when he has analysed the causes of rising damp and suggested a scientific explanation that underpins he beliefs.

It's not an arguable point. I've seen it - you haven't.

I'm telling you it exists because I've seen it.

You've never seen it - I have.

I suppose you have not read the arguments from other scientific point of views as you can do here: For you - rising damp is not possible

If rising damp didn't exist then there would be no provision in the building regs to counteract it with a DPC would there?

Nobel prize material there, surely.

Then there were some very interesting posts by quite a few people, followed by, yes, we all know what's coming don't we!

What's a matter with you people? I live in an area where rising damp is everywhere. I'll take some photos when I get around to it. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Have you seen a Giant Panda in the wild? No? I don't suppose they exist then?

It's like we've just come out of an ice age and discovered a dinosaur that has miraculously survived...

 

[jbonding]

I am convinced it doesnt exist going off this post and i could never understand how it could exist. Ive been plastering 18 yrs and agree the problem lies elsewere and injections and other mad stuff are a con, damp meters are a con, how can they prove damp is rising? how can it rise?

 

[Softus]

jbonding, thanks for your post.

I'm not (yet) convinced that RD in brickwork doesn't exist, because I'm maintaining an open mind, much like everyone in the "doesn't exist" camp.

I've yet to see York Minster, but I'm keen to have a look. Also I'd like to see an example of a Trent Valley property from joe-90. TexMex is the only person who's provided a reasoned explanation of his personal experience, but even he was unsure.

Of course there are conmen in the damp industry, but I can't blame them for making a living on the back of something that the establishment so wholeheartedly endorses.

Nonetheless, I'm amazed that those who believe most strongly that RD does exist don't offer some edidence of it. They are so certain of their own views, and yet the most convincing arguments they can offer tend to run as follows:

1. I've seen it.
2. There wouldn't be so many Building Regulations if it didn't exist.
3. There wouldn't be so many people working on it if it didn't exist.

It's human nature to subscribe to the popular opinion; I'm just stepping outside the bubble to challenge the cornerstone of the above arguments, and I'm pleased to find other people, like you, who are prepared to do the same.

Let me know if you want one of the T-shirts or badges that I intend to start printing...

 

[Dellsmp]

Oooh can I have an 'I'm outside the bubble' T-shirt?
Sounds like a good slogan, will it be in large block print like george michaels old choose life t-shirts?
What about 'Down with rising damp'?