Sanyo ASHP

  • Thread starter GaytonTonner
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GaytonTonner

I have read a bit about these on this forum. Many now claim they are cheaper to run than an oil boiler, but not there to compete on NG just yet. I have only ever come across one ASHP when I was doing some thermal store work, but not on the ASHP side.

I take it that the best ASHP, the Sanyo, is cheaper run than an oil boiler. The install prices I have read appear horrendous, to the point the packback time is very long.

What is the install price vs an oil boiler and tank?

I occasionally do some jobs on oil boilers systems. If these Sanyo ASHPs are cost effective I might go further into these. The install price is very important.
 
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I'd think long and hard about a Sanyo air to water.... In the event of a compressor failure you will need a new unit, I spoke to Sanyo with a view of training for repairing them....
 
It would be interesting to hear how those with heat pumps have been getting on in this cold weather!
 
I had a call from a guy with a couple of triancos.... He was very cold indeed, unfortunately I didn't have the time to be able to go and help him. On the other hand my two a ir to air units have been warming me nicely though with the mist and cold today the living room unit was going into defrost every hour but still nice and warm with an air off temp of 50c

I use the air to air units to warm a room when the central heating is turned down in the daytime and I have to do some work at home..
 
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I have read a bit about these on this forum. Many now claim they are cheaper to run than an oil boiler, but not there to compete on NG just yet. I have only ever come across one ASHP when I was doing some thermal store work, but not on the ASHP side.

I take it that the best ASHP, the Sanyo, is cheaper run than an oil boiler. The install prices I have read appear horrendous, to the point the packback time is very long.

What is the install price vs an oil boiler and tank?

I occasionally do some jobs on oil boilers systems. If these Sanyo ASHPs are cost effective I might go further into these. The install price is very important.

Can you confirm that Sanyo is the best?

Plus expect to pay 3.5k+ for an installation and as an air con company owner of 25 years + I wouldn't have one of these things in my home if you paid me!

Cheers

Richard
 
I'd think long and hard about a Sanyo air to water.... In the event of a compressor failure you will need a new unit, I spoke to Sanyo with a view of training for repairing them....

Sanyo have only had 4 compressors fail world wide.
If the compressor fails you don't and cant repair them,the outdoor unit is removed and replaced by sanyo and only sanyo. The faulty unit is then quarinteened and sent back to japan.the factory in japan is the only place that can test and identify the faults within both stages of the compressor.
The compressor is the only one o it's kind,patent held by sanyo and with out this compressor technology no other manufacturer can get co2 heat pumps to operate correctly.

Anyone that tells you the install cost is high compared to other ashp is talking ****,its the same as any air/water heat pump except you don't need any fridge pipework between in and out,so a cost saving there.

The reality is it costs More to purchase the materials.3 times the price on average if you go for the acv tank.

As for cost compatability the only think its not cheaper than is gas,as an off gas alternative ashp will always win.what you have to understand is the difference between how hfc and co2 units operate through out the temp and pressure range.

the sanyo unit will produce useable heat through out its working range all the way down ast-26 to a cop above 2 at those low temperatures,a HFC unit by virtue of the refridgerent will start a dfrost cycle a 7degc, any lower and the unit will use all its generated heat just to stop it self freezing.HFC only produces transferable heat during 2 period of gas transision and will there have a lower cop as at a certain point the heat production becomes stagnent whilst the gas is inbetween stages.

as a domestic product the sanyo is way over priced and wont take off,commercialy its in a league of its own.the technology isnt new,google eco cute for the first solution in japan, as a co2 product all supermarket fridges use co2 as the refridgerent for its cooling properties.the technology is so right its just the box cost that is scary,about £5600 for a 9kw unit and 500litre acv plus install.pipework between outdoor and acv is water so thats easy for a plumber,the inside is standard plumbing,no wonder the fridge guys are scared of it,good product,good cop and no need for a fridge guy.

If you have 25years in the AC indusrtry and you want another 25 then sanyo's products will take you to another level and add longevity,as well as their heat pump you should be looking at VRF ac heat pump units which have a useable waste heat by product whilst the unit is in heat or cool.Another first
 
LCGS.... Before an argument breaks out, think long and hard before you go head to head with Mr Bartlett over air conditioning and refrigeration...

A compressor is a machine and so will at some stage of it's life will fail.. Once out of warranty replacing the outdoor unit is an expensive deal... I looked at the Sanyo for my own home as I have an account with a Sanyo agent but just couldn't bring myself to go that way, their minisplits I find to be very good though
 
Having done the manufacturers course a while back now I can't remember for sure the warranty period on the compressor but pretty sure it's based against the life if the outdoor unit.
Because failure is so rare sanyo need any failures reporting regardless of age,they're the designer and manufacturer and are red hot on after sales.

With regards to mr bartlett, as a Hvac engineer and specifier I'm entitled to an opinion just as he is.
There is little arguement that 744 compared to 410a is a better fridge gas that out performs through it's range.
I can happily compare instal costs against both types of system as I've fitted them.
 
Can you show me where you get a COP of 2 @ -26 deg'c from this unit as This guy has one installed and his yearly average COP is 1.54!..

http://www.elisanet.fi/sanyoco2log/

I had a very long chat with one of the technical guys at Kensa GSHP down in Devon recently and I said all HP's are one probably 2 generations away from being a good alternative as a COP of 7+ was where the industry needed to be. He quietly agreed and added there was nothing on the horizon that would move the industry that far forward.

He also said that's its alledged most of the Japanese were lying through their teeth with regard to their quoted COP figures but that was the only thing Joe Punter noticed when buying. The industry is supposedly about to reassess the rating which will lead to manufacturers quoted COP's dropping down to more like our Finnish friends real life numbers..That is going to hurt the industry if it goes ahead I can tell you!

Actually fridge guy's are not scared of it or any other vapour compression cycle system. We know they will fail and we know we are the only ones who can legally fix them .

We've been talking about CO2 ashp's for years

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10481

Crack on and install as many as you can -just don't expect me to get *one in the next 10 years or so...:cool:

(*ANY hot water ASHP combo )

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thanks for the link, ive posted it to a guy at sanyo to explain why that unit is performing so poorly.
the one thing i would note is there is no mention of average temperature and max and min temps just to get a feel of the true climate.

ive got a sanyo running equiped with data logging equip for a direct comparrison against an altherma,both the same heating layouts just different engines to use for our own market research into actual design and performance criteria acheiveable.

We'll have to see whats what after the cold snap we're in the middle of.
 
thanks for the link, ive posted it to a guy at sanyo to explain why that unit is performing so poorly.
the one thing i would note is there is no mention of average temperature and max and min temps just to get a feel of the true climate.

Ive got a sanyo running equipped with data logging equip for a direct comparison against an altherma,both the same heating layouts just different engines to use for our own market research into actual design and performance criteria acheiveable.

We'll have to see whats what after the cold snap we're in the middle of.

I -by luck- happened to be in the house Space Air were using as a live test bed for the Altherma some time back and spent many hours chatting to the owner. He was a wealthy Dentist big on green matters so his house was a new build with the full monty ASHP, rain water harvesting etc etc

He said Space technical were in once or twice a week tweaking this and that...So the system is in top spec with regard to the install and kit etc

I asked why it wasn't running

"It's broken down -again" he replied..

I asked how he would rate the system (when running) overall

"The juries out but I wouldn't go this route again"

I admit I am cynical about these units as by their nature they are the least efficient when you need them the most. Of course in a more temperate climate they would work well I just don't believe our climate is truly right for them and that's ignoring the two major cold snaps we've had this year

Ground source is better for efficiency but mad for install cost

I look forward to Sanyo's response

Richard
 
Richard, I seem to remember that not too many years ago, the industry used to say "Never sell air source heat pumps as the primary source of heating"... I still prescribe to this view.
 
Richard, I seem to remember that not too many years ago, the industry used to say "Never sell air source heat pumps as the primary source of heating"... I still prescribe to this view.

In the early eighties I was in the design department for Qualitair. Most of the heat pumps around were crude devices. Even the Japanese splits would have an electric heater rod in the wall mount for back up..

Now they are much much better and air heat pumps are a reasonable alternative to gas.

Personally although I can buy it all at trade and fit it myself, I would have a combi boiler installed which will cost me full price..
 
Whilst we're still waiting for Sanyo to get back; a quick revist shows last month the COP average dropped to 1.11 :eek:

http://www.elisanet.fi/sanyoco2log/

On the refrigeration forum it's full of disgruntled ASHP owners sitting in cold houses burning fivers to stay warm (as it's a cheaper way of generating heat..)

Not all is down to the equipment but it re-inforces my belief these systems are not really suited to our climate and are still years away from being an acceptable solution to our heating needs..
 

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