1. Visiting from the US? Why not try DIYnot.US instead? Click here to continue to DIYnot.US.
    Dismiss Notice

semi detached hip to gable for main house, then hip roof for extension

Discussion in 'Building Regulations and Planning Permission' started by jim88, 18 Apr 2020.

  1. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    ok so here goes, il try explain as best as i can. My head is a bit battered at the moment

    I have a 1920 semi detached house with a hip roof. Ive built a double side extension (2m wide) that’s currently at eaves level. We have decided to make space of the large loft space and convert it so Ive recently applied for change of roof, we put in for a continuous roof with the 2 hips starting at the start of the extension (external wall of the original house). The idea was to completely strip out the traditional cut roof, install steal ridge beam and re build with 6x2 and get rid of the purlins, this would of gave us plenty of space for the bedroom and bathroom. However the council are not supporting this at all, they want a dropped ridge so that means an extra hip and valley at the front which massively cuts off head height internally.



    Im aware a hip to gable conversion is covered under PD, how would planners react if i lodged an application changing the original house roof to a gable and then building a hip roof on the 2m wide x 8m extension that would tie into the side of the new gable wall.



    Im thinking it wouldn’t be as simple as that for some reason, maybe because i have an extension being built at the moment, Is timing an issue.I.e would i have to convert the house roof before i changed the current application for the extension roof.



    I do plan to put a dormer on the back under PD but ive not informed the council about that yet, they are being arsey as it is



    Massive thank you to anyone who takes the time to offer me some advice or tips to get around this.


    Purple dashed line indicates gable roof
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Sponsored Links
  3. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    If you’re planning a hip to gable roof extension under PD and then also wanted a hipped roof over the new extension that would join to the new gable wall, Planning would expect you to first build and substantially complete the PD works first. Once you have built out the PD works, you would then have to submit a formal Planning application showing the PD works ‘as existing.’

    In relation to the dormer and as PD relates to the original dwelling, you could only put it on the back of the existing part of the house and not the extended part. Any dormer to the back of the new part would require formal Planning.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  4. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Thank you very much for the reply DOHa!
    Thats exactly what I wanted to hear.
    Quick question, in order to speed up the process would I be able to submit the application for the hip roof now while I’m converting the house roof?

    so is it safe to say converting my roof to a gable is definitely allowed under PD, as long as I don’t live in a conservation area or listed building etc which it’s not. Would you advise me getting a certificate of lawfulness, do you know how long these take?
     
  5. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I’m not sure how that would help because as you’d need formal Planning for the new hipped roof, Planning could and probably will still request it’s stepped down from the original.

    I’m not sure how PD would help either because if you did proceed with a hip to gable roof extension and then formally applied for the hip, they could and probably will still request it’s stepped down from the original. In that respect, it’d just be easier and quicker to just apply for the new hipped roof to connect to existing. On the same application, you could also include the dormer to the rear and loft conversion of both existing and new roof spaces.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Thanks again

    I’ve already been in talks with them about allowing me to have a continuous ridge line that ends at the external wall of the house and then goes into the hips when the extension starts but they will not allow it, they want a dropped ridge that’s 300mm lower than the house ridge so this would create the extra hip rafter in the middle of the front of the house.

    I don’t mind the hipped roof on the extension being stepped down, I can use this for storage as the extension is only 2m wide, my main goal was for a continuous ridge line so I didn’t have to have the extra hip on the front of the roof. However with a gable conversion I will have no hips over the main house which is basically what I need.

    would the council except a scheme which includes PD hip to gable and then a hipped roof. My council are really awkward, I feel like I would have to do this in stages to get around it. I.e like what you said in the first reply about me doing the gable conversion first
     
  7. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Right, I see what you mean. Providing the hip to gable roof extension complies with the PD rules, then the LPA will not have an issue. It may be an idea to submit a CoL for these works though as I can just imagine it may flag up as potential issues, concerns or delays with any future house sale. For you to proceed with the submission of a CoL application, the house as it currently stands would have to be shown as existing so that would include the works you have built to date. You should indicate these works are currently under construction and approved under ref. *** so the LPA are only dealing with the hip to gable alterations. With this CoL application, you may as well put the dormer on the rear too. As mentioned before and subject to the CoL application being approved, the Council would expect you to build out the PD works before you go back to them formally for the re-design of the roof to the extension. There are obviously costs and time issues with this but this is the only way you could get it through Planning.

    Btw, you did state the new extension roof hasn't gone on yet because if it has, that's a little different and more difficult with PD?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I’m going to submit an application with the hip/gable conversion and the new hipped roof on the extension. Hopefully they accept it and I can crack on. if they don’t then il build the hip/gable conversion and then submit an application for the extension roof.
    they are requiring

    extension to be subservient
    Eaves to be same level
    Dropped ridge line for the extension.

    I will make sure all of this is included in the new application so I really don’t see why they can reject it. They are being awkward though so nothing surprises me
    At this point

    I’ve also enquired about a dormer in the early planning stages and they said they don’t like them haha, so if I put this on the application I reckon they will just dismiss it instantly. I will build the dormer under PD once I’ve had the roof design accepted and just make sure I stay under the 50m3 rule

    Just a quick one, would I be able to draw my house roof as a gable now, I.e show it as existing even though I’ve not built it. Just thinking this might speeds things up.
    Thanks again for the replies, massively appreciated!!
     
  9. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Few drone pics of where it’s currently at
    08D397DB-2334-4B8F-BF34-91725EF33F5B.jpeg 63055B31-C608-4C26-A5CB-A980AFFF27BB.jpeg 656508ED-A4A3-463D-ADCB-292740187AFE.jpeg
     
  10. Sponsored Links
  11. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    The process you would have to follow (as I was involved in something similar) is this...

    1. Submit and await approval for a CoL application to form a hip to gable roof extension and rear dormer; or Build the hip to gable roof extension and rear dormer without submitting a CoL application.
    2. Submit a Householder application as a revised application to the previous, which will include the PD works "as built" in addition to the Council's requirements in making the extended roof appear sub-subservient.

    The Council cannot refuse a hip to gable roof extension along with a rear dormer under PD if the proposals meet the PD requirements. For your information, the 50 cu.m volume would include that of the hip to gable roof extension and the rear dormer and not just the latter on its own. The tricky part about this is that you have already commenced work on the roof element of the extension where the ceiling joists begin to tie in to the existing. I'm not sure whether the Council will take a slightly different view on the PD rules there.

    For PD works, I would always suggest submitting a CoL application, especially in a case like yours where there will eventually be different phases achieved by different processes.

    Instead of submitting a new Householder application, you could probably submit a Variation of Condition application. However, the application fee for this type of application is slightly more than a Householder application, i.e. £234.00 as opposed to £206.00. Also, if you were to proceed with another Householder application and providing the application is submitted within 12 months of the previous being determined, you would normally be exempt from having to pay the £206.00 application fee again. This is why the Householder application may be better and cheaper for you.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I got planning passed January 14th this year so I still have plenty of time for free amendments

    I will take your advice then, I will submit a col as you stated in point 1.

    In regards to PD with “enlargement” I was reading late last night about dormers having to be stepped in from the verge slighting so it meets some enlargement rule; there was a big post I read on here but I can’t find it. Do you know if this would be the case for me or can I start the dormer from my external brick original wall

    for a col application would I need professional architect drawings? Or Would a detailed sketch suffice, I would have to pay my architect again for this. If it is needed I will pay, just if I can do it myself then I will.

    thanks for clearing up the 50m3 allowance, the original house size is 5.8m x 6150mm and the ridge is 2.4m

    the extension is 6150x2130

    I will try work it out now
     
  13. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Note a CoL application (similar to a HH or VoC application) can take up to 8 weeks to be determined meaning your building works would be on hold for that long.

    In relation to the set back for dormers, you may be thinking about this...

    "Roof extensions, apart from hip to gable ones, to be set back, as far as practicable, at least 20cm from the original eaves"
    (That measurement is measured up the slope as opposed to a horizontal distance, i.e. plan view)

    All the rules and requirements for loft conversions to meet the PD guidelines can be found here...

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/36/loft_conversion

    Any Planning application would require existing and proposed plans and elevations, all to scale. If this is something you can do, then fine but is normally a little more involved for your average client.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  14. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    When I mentioned the set back for the dormer I was referring to the verge (side of the house). Can you see how it’s set in slightly from the sides on the picture. Do you know if I would have to do that or could I go right to the external outer skin brick.

    i will get my architect involved again just to be safe.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    The rules do state you should retain the original eaves so with a hipped roof, you'd retain a part of the lower slope before it meets the gable wall. Your new gable wall would have a slight verge/overhang and then your dormer would sit in from the edge. However, I personally have in the past CoL approval for having it flush and therefore not retaining the original hipped eaves, albeit that doesn't technically comply with the PD rules.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  16. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Messages:
    1,589
    Thanks Received:
    265
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  17. jim88

    jim88

    Joined:
    9 Nov 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    im just trying to imagine how that Would look when I return the extension hip roof into it.
    This is where a col application would be beneficial before I start work so I know what I could have
    I am eager to get cracking though
     
Sponsored Links
Loading...

Share This Page