shed wiring for snakes, but another question

[Alarm]

To RF and Holms, sorry, I misread.
Again as you point out another has hidden the woods for the trees so to speak and over complicated matters.

So to you both apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm really not convinced that I'm the one who has either hidden the woods for the trees or over-complicated things.

The OP asked about a means of giving an in-house indication of power failure (probably due to local RCD dripping) in the shed. Despite his sticking with that aim, some, including myself, have suggested that he should probably consider having remote warning of heating failure - instead of, or as well as, power failure. In response, those who talk of over-complication have been promoting a (quite expensive) method of communicating heating failures via telephone networks - something which the OP may, or may not want or need.

There is a simple and very cheap solution to the primary question along the lines that has been discussed .... install a standard room thermostat which has both N/O and N/C contacts (e.g. Honeywell T6360 - around £15) in the shed, use the 'close when temp rises' contacts to switch the (RCD protected) shed supply and take that switched supply (and post RCD neutral) back to the house in two spare cores. The voltage returned to the house will then disappear if either the shed power supply fails (giving warning of impending temperature fall) or the temperature falls without power failure. Just a relay can then be used to activate whatever indicators/alarms might be required in the house - including, if the OP really has the need and wants to spend a hundred quid or three, a box which will communicate warnings via telephone networks.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Alarm]

There are slightly cheaper units about. Not as reliable IMHO.
However this method will let him know when he is out, or let a key holder know if away from home.
Just using a relay as suggested will not give remote indication. Nor let you know as before if an element had expired.
Considering the expense of reptiles and related costs the item suggested would not be prohibitive ( Ex keeper of snakes myself).

The SD3 would also be able to notify of up to 7 other events and with some "electronic engineering" this could monitor a host of other variables making it a very versatile item and thus making it even more value for money.
Even remotely switching on a temporary heater until someone can arrive.

With 10 possible numbers to call as well there is no chance that something amiss would not be acted upon.


http://www.coopersecurity.co.uk/products/productsindex.aspx?intProductID=326&intProductCategoryID=43 (GSM only)
http://www.coopersecurity.co.uk/products/productsindex.aspx?intProductID=211&intProductCategoryID=43 ( Phone line version, slightly cheaper)

So when you weigh up the variables it covers all the bases in one unit.

 

[JohnW2]

There are slightly cheaper units about. Not as reliable IMHO. However this method will let him know when he is out, or let a key holder know if away from home. Just using a relay as suggested will not give remote indication. Nor let you know as before if an element had expired. Considering the expense of reptiles and related costs the item suggested would not be prohibitive ( Ex keeper of snakes myself). The SD3 would also be able to notify of up to 7 other events and with some "electronic engineering" this could monitor a host of other variables making it a very versatile item and thus making it even more value for money. Even remotely switching on a temporary heater until someone can arrive.

I am in no way knocking things like the SD3 which, as you say is extremely versatile. Indeed, I have a home-brew box of tricks which does many of those things, first built many years ago and gradually evolved since. For those who want/need such functionality, it's a fantastic approach.

My point obviously was that it goes a long way beyond what the OP was asking about - so he may, or may not, want that degree of functionality and expense. The approach I mentioned in my last post would/could do everything other than remote indication for the price of a simple thermostat, a relay and a couple of extra cores in the supply cable. It could be extended to switching on a temporary heater (if power for it were available) and, indeed, could even be connected to a remote indicating system in the future if that requirement arose.

As for the cost/benefit comment you make, as an ex-keeper of snakes I imagine that you probably agree with my earlier comment that periods of low temperature are not usually any lasting problem for ectothermic reptiles.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Alarm]

That depends on what is being kept to a certain degree.

 

[JohnW2]

That depends on what is being kept to a certain degree.

It does, but, provided that they don't freeze, I think that most such reptiles would be fine after a few hours, days, or usually even weeks at very low (above freezing) temperatures.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Alarm]

I knew this would happen.
Briefly it can cause long term health issues even if just above freezing. The change in humidity too is a large factor many forget.
Also too much heat in the vivarium would also cause damage, again where the SD3 would assist in early detection.
(Another reason why "hot Rocks" are to be avoided).

But this could go on for hours, the fact is there are more variables then cold and I think it has been proven what is the better all round item needed for good reptile husbandry.

 

[JohnW2]

I knew this would happen.

There's no need for a discussion about reptilian physiology. The point, which has been made, is that nothing catastrophic is going to happen the moment (probably not even the day) that heating fails. We aren't talking about an incubator for a human neonate!

Also too much heat in the vivarium would also cause damage, again where the SD3 would assist in early detection.

True - but an extra £15 for an additional 'other way around' room stat would add that facility onto what I suggested.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Depending on the length and cable size required a 'couple of extra cores' in the supply cable is not necessarily going to be that cheap.

A direct-burial cat5/telecom cable might be an alternative to extra cores or remote signalling.

I kinda feel sorry for the snakes left all alone out in the shed ...

 

[Alarm]

Another needless debate.

How about, your right, yours was the better answer.
Feel any better?
As mentioned there is no need to write an essay for every event, it tends to put a few off even reading any further.

Of course you have a box of tricks that does all this, thats why you mentioned it in the first place as a better alternative.

I have given possibly the best advise for this having been in the situation. As before that money compared to the cost in time,effort and money required to keep a good vivarium running is not a lot in the scheme of things. And it is one unit, not a few combined together.

I think that is all that needs to be said TBH.

 

[JohnW2]

Depending on the length and cable size required a 'couple of extra cores' in the supply cable is not necessarily going to be that cheap. A direct-burial cat5/telecom cable might be an alternative to extra cores or remote signalling.

It was the OP who suggested 5-core SWA, but I don't think it actually makes all that much monetary difference. Looking at one supplier, their prices (per metre, small quantities, excluding VAT) are £1.14/m for 3-core 2.5mm² SWA, £1.84 for 5-core 2.5mm² SWA and £0.43/m for cate 5e. One would therefore be talking about the difference between £1.57/m and £1.84/m (excl VAT) - or a bigger difference if one needed fatter SWA. However, using ELV signalling obviously would be an option if one wanted to make a small saving on cable cost, and that could easily be achieved by a slight adaptation of the 'suggestion' I've been making.

I kinda feel sorry for the snakes left all alone out in the shed ...

Yes, I've been very tempted to make a similar comment. I think that if anyone who keeps animals, of any sort, 'for fun' does not at least 'check up on them' (or arrange for someone to check up on them) at least once per day (particularly during adverse weather), it is very questionable as to whether they should be keeping the animals in the first place. BAS would probably go a bit further than that!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

How about, your right, yours was the better answer. Feel any better?

It's not a competition, nor a matter of ego. My answer may have been different, and may have been closer to the question which was asked, but it's not for me to suggest, or even believe, that it was in any way 'better'.

As one final thought, in relation to your answer rather than mine ... if one were to use something like an SD3, it would seem a pity to stick it in the shed. I would have thought that it would be better to have it in the house, with (wired or wireless) remote sensors in the shed, so that all it's other potential could be put to good use in relation to happenings in the house.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Alarm]

As one final thought, in relation to your answer rather than mine ... if one were to use something like an SD3, it would seem a pity to stick it in the shed. I would have thought that it would be better to have it in the house, with (wired or wireless) remote sensors in the shed, so that all it's other potential could be put to good use in relation to happenings in the house.

Kind Regards, John.

But it does seem like ego with you.

You might like to have a read again, I never suggested where the SD3 should be located.
There are certain rules you have to abide with it but it could be put anywhere in reality and just use an external upper and lower sensor.
And it would be hard wired, although there are other wireless options you could use but then again I would be berated over costs again would I not.

But you had to have the last word.

 

[JohnW2]

As one final thought, in relation to your answer rather than mine ... if one were to use something like an SD3, it would seem a pity to stick it in the shed. I would have thought that it would be better to have it in the house, with (wired or wireless) remote sensors in the shed, so that all it's other potential could be put to good use in relation to happenings in the house.

But it does seem like ego with you. You might like to have a read again, I never suggested where the SD3 should be located.

I know you didn't, and nor did I suggest that you had. I was just saying that it would seem a pity to put it in the shed, since putting it in the house would allow its potential to be more fully exploited. You said nothing explicitly about where it would be located. Are you sure that it's my ego, and not your paranoia or pre-judgements, that is the issue? - when someone writes something, it's hardly normal for people to assume that it was a criticism of something which they didn't write, but which they think the other person may have imagined that they'd written!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[riveralt]

I know you didn't, and nor did I suggest that you had. I was just saying that it would seem a pity to put it in the shed, since putting it in the house would allow its potential to be more fully exploited. You said nothing explicitly about where it would be located. Are you sure that it's my ego, and not your paranoia or pre-judgements, that is the issue? - when someone writes something, it's hardly normal for people to assume that it was a criticism of something which they didn't write, but which they think the other person may have imagined that they'd written!

I had heard you were going to stop posting after the 28th January 2012 - in fact you promised - please keep your promises - please - please!